Is Coalhouse Walker Jr an anti-hero? *spoilers: Ragtime, Sweeney, old films

[jam_man]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 3:36am

I was watching the Hearn/LuPone Sweeney Todd, and got to thinking about how once on here we labeled Todd as an "anti-hero." You know how the mind works, in ways no one understands, so that got me thinking if you would consider Coalhouse Walker Jr from Ragtime an anti-hero as well.

In Sweeney, he's the obvious protagonist, but in the case of Coalhouse, he's but one main character (though in the musical certainly the biggest part), but all of the other main characters that you're supposed to empathize with also side with him (Mother, Younger Brother, etc). I don't think (personally) that you're ever supposed to believe that he's crazy in the vien that you are with Sweeney, at least post-Epiphiny. Especially after "Sarah Brown Eyes," you still empathize with Coalhouse despite all of the death and destruction he has caused and still plans to.

Any other thoughts?

Updated On: 8/2/07 at 03:36 AM

[COOOOLkid]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 4:10am

I just think that he just wanted justice.

So I don't think he's a hero or an anti-hero.

[camp_actor]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 5:13am

Both characters are tragical heroes in the classical sense. They both have a fatal flaw in their character - in Sweeney it is vengeance, in Coalhouse it is pride - which leads to their demise. We see that the reason for them falling is the evil in other characters acting on their character flaw, which makes us empathise with their less moral choices. Ultimately both characters reach a state of self awareness and realisation of what they have done and then they die.

Check out the Wikipedia page too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragic_hero#Tragic_virtue

It's amazing really when you read something like that, because you never really think of playwrights sitting down and saying "right, well I need to write a character who is noble, with a fatal flaw in the classical tragedy style blah blah blah". But it's amazing how you can apply almost ALL the notes on what a tragical hero is to Sweeney and Coalhouse.

[Act0r721]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 10:29am

Spoiler warning camp_actor?

So, I listen to my "Ragtime" CD all the time and I saw a high school production of it. . . but I was thinking maybe there was something I just never tuned into or missed from the CD. I just glanced at a synopsis and yeah, I think I should see the production going on in Chicago right now. Haha.

[ChrisLovesShows]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 11:17am

Cool question and I like the comparison with Sweeney. I think Coalhouse is the story's hero, but in the firm mold of the "tragic hero." He is pure-intentioned but his fatal character flaw, as camp_actor pointed out, leads to his downfall. Sweeney, whose revenge morphs into plain evil (gleefully killing innocents that have no relation to the judge) is more of an anti-hero, I might think. Definitely open to interpretation.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 11:28am

I guess so, because he's seeking out justice (a good thing) but doing so using "bad" methods.

[camp_actor]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 1:33pm

Coalhouse is an upright and noble man for much of the play, but because the evil in other characters poison his mind he becomes mad and acts in an un-heroic way. Actually the character has lots of parallels with Othello. Maybe Coalhouse is a modern day Othello?

Act0r721 - I get the impression that some people on this board would get upset if I mentioned that Jesus dies at the end of "Jesus Christ Superstar" or that "Romeo and Juliet" doesn't end too happily.

[Taryn]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 1:33pm

I'd say that Coalhouse is a tragic hero. He falls from a height due to his own hubris (pride) and he only realizes his mistake after it's too late.

On the other hand, I would NOT describe Sweeney as a tragic hero, unless you were to put him in the category of a very modern tragic hero, which is, in essence, an anti-hero. But he's not noble enough and doesn't have a height to fall from throughout the course of the show. He's already fallen.

[camp_actor]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 1:46pm

He has elements of nobility though - he is revered by Anthony and by Lovett and was obviously an upstanding man when he was a barber. Remember, he was sent away for something that he did not do. A man who has done no wrong, but has been kicked in the face and spat by society, by London. He comes back a changed man - what has he seen? Ultimately the audience is predisposed to empathise with him. We see him as the underdog (like Hamlet etc). Have you read or seen "The Revengers Tragedy" - a Jacobean drama which has very similar ideas... A man (named Vindice) brooding over his dead wife who was murdered by the lecherous old Duke because "she would not consent unto his palsy lust". He vows vengeance against the Duke and his family (who are all morally corrupt in some way) and sets about killing everybody! There is so much murder by the end of the play that Vindice has forgotten or lost the reasons that he began killing and is now merely revelling in death. Again, by the rules of tragedy, he has committed huge crimes and become inhuman, and so he must die but before that must have his moment of self-realisation.

It's the same play!... well, without pies and haircuts.

Sweeney is a dark character, but he is still a tragical hero. He does reach self-recognition when he sees his dead wife, and he knows that he must die to pay for his crime. Classic.

[Funny Face]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 1:59pm

I think that discussion is the point of Coalhouse's character in "Ragtime". He was in a world that was, in essence, against him. A black man in the early 1900's, wanting a better life for him and his family, and wnating to be treated like any average white man. I mean, society was not on his side AT ALL on his quest. He couldn't really achieve justice in the easy, "regular" way since society just didn't allow him to. I remember Natalie Portman being interviewed about V for Vendetta and she was asked about her opinion on terrorism as a tool for social change, and she said something to the effect of "Well, I'm not saying I agree, but the question is 'How non-violent can you be in a violent world?'" and I think that is a very good point and very poignant to Coalhouse's situation as well.
He reacts after a very awful act of violence that killed the person he loved. It really depends on how far you are able to go out of usual standards of "good" and "bad" and look at the way more complicated circumstances of Coalhouse's situation in that place and time.

[camp_actor]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 2:05pm

That's a very eloquent and beautiful way of putting it Funny Face. Thankyou!

[Act0r721]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 2:10pm

camp_actor- Did you just compare the work of Flaherty & Ahrens and Sondheim to the bible and Shakespeare?

If I were a lesser person, I would think it be just to PM everyone who spoils anything by sporadically sending them numerous spoilers.

Guess it's one of the pitfalls of this board and luckily, I knew both of the ends to these two musicals, but I am sure there are people who do not. I think you'd be naive to think otherwise.

[Funny Face]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 2:16pm

I think you're being a bit naive to think that there wouldn't be spoilers in this thread. You could tell by the thread title that people would probably go into and in-depth analysis of the character and the necessary spoilers would ensue.

[camp_actor]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 2:23pm

But what does knowing the eventual outcome have to do with engaging with the production? I have seen numerous different productions of the same play and still engaged fully every time and been moved EVEN THOUGH I knew what was going to happen. It's a crazy concept, I know, but people like to be told a story that they know. "Once upon a time..."

I wasn't comparing the plays in terms of quality of penmanship. That would be impossible. I was looking at similarities in plot and character motivation.

I find "spoiler" a really tiresome word.

[camp_actor]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 2:25pm

Oh, I just realised you meant in my little bit addressed to you. Um... yes, I did.

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 2:55pm

Oh, come on.

I don't see why we need to do spoiler alerts on a show that's now ten years old... that also had a film version released 25 years ago, both based on a book that came out in 1975.

This IS a thread that opens a discussion on the character and his story line.

Good god.

Brace yourselves...

Dorothy goes home at the end of The Wizard of Oz
Dracula is destroyed at the end
Scarlett and Rhett DON'T end up together
Neither do Ilsa and Rick
Rosebud is a sled
Peter Pan never grows up, and Wendy does
Gilligan never gets off the island
Bobby Ewing's death was a dream
Norman Bates becomes his mother in his own mind


There now, I feel much better.

[Act0r721]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 3:06pm

He spoiled "Ragtime," as well kiddo.

The fact is, when other people DO think it matters to know the end of a show they haven't yet seen, you are an asshole when you go against their wishes, when it is so incredibly easy not to.

*spoiler* < - That's 9 characters. Can you handle it?

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 3:14pm

I must ask - If you aren't familar with the show, why would you click on a thread discussing one of the main characters?

[Act0r721]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 3:25pm

I am familiar with both shows, but don't you think someone may come in who loves "Ragtime," but still doesn't know "Sweeney Todd"?

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 3:44pm

IDIOT

That's even less characters.

Can you handle that?

Oh, and the last one's a "T."

Did I ruin it for you? Do forgive me.

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 3:49pm

Then, oh well.

Sweeney dies. Guess what if you don't know it by now, (the show's been around for over twenty years, has had two revivals, and has been videotaped twice), then it won't ruin it for you.

Really. Coalhouse and Sweeney dying are not MAJOR plot twists. One character dying in Sweeney is. Sweeney dying is not.

[Act0r721]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 5:57pm

Why does it being around for long have much to do with it? I'm sure there are plenty of shows that came out at that time (before I was born) that I still don't know.

The other hub-bub about the "Into The Woods" spoiler - > that was a real spoiler for me. I actually saw a junior production of it when I was in middle school and have even thought about buying the DVD. I'm 19 and know the show somewhat, but because it has been out for a long time, it is to be expected that anyone with a Broadway interest knows what happens?

It's just careless and if people don't want things spoiled for them, I don't get why it is such a hassle to not do so.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 6:19pm

What is it with the spoiler fixation lately? Eventually, a show becomes fair game for discussion. You can deduce (or even are explicitly told) both Ragtime and Sweeney's endings on their cast recordings.

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 6:26pm

And you can always find a synopsis online.

[COOOOLkid]

Posted: 8/2/07 at 6:50pm

Whoa! THE BEGGAR WOMAN IS SWEENEY'S WIFE, BUT SWEENEY KILLS HER?

Get a life instead of ruining this interesting discussion.