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#1

Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 12:03pm

OK, this may have been discussed, but since I've been coming on here regularly the last few months, I've noticed the incredible number of people on here who seem fixated on only the new musicals, as though Wicked was the new "Oklahoma!," with Rent being the throwback "Showboat" of it's time. I guess I get the fascination with the new, I mean, I love a lot of these new shows as much as the next person, but I listen to so much more than Wicked and DRS and Piazza! Even more, and this is something I tell my students all the time, when someone asks for a favorite musical (or favorite CD etc.), then doesn't that by definition, unless the word "current" is in there, mean of ALL TIME? Now, to me, a favorite HAS to stand the test of time. I'd say we're at a point now where Rent could be considered a favorite, but Piazza? It's good, but it's BRAND new! How can you say that in a year, five, ten, twenty, you'll still be listening to it?

I guess this is just something that's always bothered me about popular music, and I thought that theater people were beyond this. I'm just as happy listening to my cds of shows from the 40s and 50s (heck, I'll go as far back as G&S) as I am Spelling Bee or Spamalot (well, maybe not Spamalot as much).

I don't want this to sound insulting, but is this from a lack of knowledge of older shows? Or is there something I'm missing?

For the record, I'm 27, so it's not like I was around for a lot of these older shows, though they are shows I grew up seeing in regional theaters and listening to the recordings...

Hi, Shirley Temple Pudding.

#2

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 12:05pm

It's due to the "averge" age of posters being somewhere under 18.

#3

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 12:13pm

Hm - that's too bad, even at a young age I was listening to the classics.

Hi, Shirley Temple Pudding.

#4

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 12:16pm

I think it's because of a lack of knowledge about older shows, but I wouldn't say that's necessarily correlated with age. I'm 14, and I can't imagine how people could consider Wicked/Rent/The Light in the Piazza to be the greatest things ever written. On the flip side: I have a 40-something-year-old aunt who is a total Wickedite. Go figure.

Anyway, I think it's great that these people are here, because they can learn from posters who have more experience with older shows. Hopefully, they can come to appreciate and enjoy those shows as much as anyone else.

Updated On: 6/27/05 at 12:16 PM

#5

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 12:18pm

Likewise....Oklahoma!, Carousel, Mame, West Side Story?? It doesnt get any better...Of my Top 10 favorite shows of all time (yeah, i have a list of 10--i'm a geek that way), there are 2 that were written in my lifetime.

i'm 25, btw.

"I'll eat some breakfast then change the world." "I hate you, and I hate your ass face!"

#6

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 12:26pm

I'm 17 and I will listen to anything. My favorite show is Les Miz, so I don't know whether that's considered the "new" stuff or not but... The thing is, that is the stuff that's on Broadway right now, so people can see it. I mean, I hardly ever see Oklahoma being produced in my town so it makes it pretty hard to see. But you always get the same ones... Annie, Oliver, The Wizard of Oz. It really limits your choices. I think that it's hard to say your favorite show is something when you've never seen it. I can say that Company has my favorite music, but it's not my favorite show. I don't know if any of that made sense but I tried.

"This table, he is over one hundred years old. If I could, I would take an old gramophone needle and run it along the surface of the wood. To hear the music of the voices. All that was said." - Doug Wright, I Am My Own Wife

#7

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 12:30pm

Al Dente

Perception perhaps but not reality. The "mean" average age is well above 18 :)

"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men" - Willy Wonka

#8

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 12:35pm

I think the post from the girl asking who Andrew Lloyd Webber was pretty much sums it up.

"TheatreDiva90016 - another good reason to frequent these boards less."<<>> “I hesitate to give this line of discussion the validation it so desperately craves by perpetuating it, but the light from logic is getting further and further away with your every successive post.” <<>> -whatever2

#9

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 12:41pm

This board serves to provide those theatre-lovers NOT in NYC, and who can't get there with information about what's current and popular. They don't have the benefit of TV spots, articles in local papers, billboards, let alone the proximity to theatres. They don't spot stars walking down the street, nor have the benefit of repeat viewings, or OBC shows. It is only logical that those people want to hear about current shows. They're starved for information on what's current! My Fair Lady and Sound of Music run regularly in community theatres and schools around the country, so there's no need for as much discussion, I would guess.

Besides...I found my love of theatre based on my love for then-current musicals too - i.e. Les Mis. From there you discover the others. At least the person referred to above asked about ALW! Now he/she'll discover more new shows...

On a personal note, I just don't like the old stuff (G&S, R&H). Never have. I'll take Lerner and Lowe....but I just prefer musicals since, say, 1975... (i'm 27...since this seems to be relevant to this discussion).

Updated On: 6/27/05 at 12:41 PM

#10

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 1:04pm

Musicnmath --
Obviously for "Current info" stuff we're going to talk about what's on Broadway now. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the threads that come up like "Favorite song" "Favorite book of all time" "Favorite 'chills' moment" - things like that. Not that a newer show can't MAKE a list, but what surprises me is how many people just don't seem aware at all of the older shows. For me, as someone who prides myself on my collection of cast recordings, I wouldn't dare consider myself complete without a West Side Story, Man of LaMancha, Carousel, or Gypsy - to just name a few. I'm not saying you have to like all the old shows (I can't stand Hello Dolly) but answers of Piazza and Spamalot and Wicked to EVERY question show a lack of appreciation of where theater has come from. It's like asking in the pop world who your favorites are and saying Britney Spears and Jesse Mccartney but having no idea who The Beatles or Elvis were!

Hi, Shirley Temple Pudding.

#11

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 1:36pm

I have noticed it too, but not just on this board. My high school voice students, even the ones who are 'theater geeks", are not familiar with older musicals unless they are doing them at their schools. I just consider it part of their musical theater education. I'll say OK.."We can do "Old Red Hills of Home', but we're also doing "Oh, Is there not one maiden breast" and "I Have Dreamed". I always tell them that if they want to work in musical theater, they've got to get familiar with the older stuff as well as the newer. (And I feel just like my former voice teacher who used to bug us to learn oratorio because that's "what pays the bills"....LOL)

Plus, the newer shows are the ones that get the most publicity and attention. These are the posters we see, the soundtracks that are most easily available, the sheet music that's in the front of the rack at the music store. They are foremost in people's thoughts, and so they are the first things that come to mind.

#12

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 1:51pm

Jasonf --

I see your point. I guess when those are the shows that are discussed all the time, then that's what's on the brain. hopefully some nods to the older shows (or lesser known) will intrigue those people new to our beloved genre to go searching. That's definitely how I've discovered a few shows.

I guess it's easy to call --fill in the blank-- best musical "ever" if you've only been exposed to a small subset. Though the themes of the old shows are universal (which is what makes them classics and still relevant), there's something about some newer shows that makes them more accessible especially to newcomers. Like Rent, or Brooklyn (which I've never even heard), or Spamalot. You can see people dressed in clothes you might actually wear, or humour that jibes with your own. Many of us came to theatre because we found ourselves reflectd in characters on the stage. That's why we can even have a board where people take sides on shows beyond their technical merit. Something in them touches us. Comparitively, it takes a little more imagination to really relate to "Oklahoma" (the musical, not the DRS tune). My "bests" are those that I deeply relate to.

In looking back at your first post, I think I would answer your first example of "favourite" CD with a different answer every 3 or 4 months. I have a favourite...then I play my favourite to death...then it's no longer my favourite. Though I could pick my "all-time 5"...in which case my point is moot.

I can't speak to a "chills" or "book" moment for shows I haven't seen...which means I have nothing to offer on a show like Gypsy. Others may be in the same boat.

In sum, I'm with you on your clarified point (though I may not choose to actually sit and listen to Carousel or Gypsy with you :) )

P.S. It's so much more fun chatting about musicals than doing my work :)

#13

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 2:16pm

Well I am at a musical theatre school right now and my class will be graduating in a few months and we still have people who don't fully see the importance of "Oklahoma"(Their excuse had something to do with them being Canadian.) And we even have dancers who don't know who Ann Reinking is. We have a MT history course that many consider to be a joke and thats sad. I personally knew the majority of what was talked about in the course but if I didn't I found out about it. I think some are under the impression that if they can belt out their F's that they will just get cast in Wicked or other modern shows right away and not have to worry about the past. I can see the appeal in the modern shows like Wicked, but it isn't what I obsess over or even really wish to be a part of. The problem is geting the exposure of the older classics. If you want to really pursue this career go out and find a way to watch the PBS Broadway specials. Don't just confine yourself to the past 10 years. I understand they may not become your personal favorites, but at least it is floating around somewhere in your head. I'll get off my soapbox now...

#14

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 2:31pm

"Hm - that's too bad, even at a young age I was listening to the classics."

*waves* I'm 18. My favorite musical of all time is "My Fair Lady" and my favorite composer/lyricist (team) is a tie between Sondhiem and Learner & Loewe. In fact, up until I saw the Wicked performance at the Tony's (and bought the CD the following day) I hadn't yet bought or listened to a contemporary musical.

There are some of us out there. Just not too many.

artistic dominion

#15

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 2:35pm

Musicgal -- what school do you go to that people don't appreciate Oklahoma!? (Does that need another exclamation mark because of the title?) Otherwise, you're a girl after my own heart with that post!

Anyway, when I was in college I took a MT history course and loved it -- more because my prof. was as much a geek as I am and he told us a bunch of tidbits I didn't know before (not that I remember most of them now, or if I do they've become a part of my general knowledge). We spent a LOT of time on early shows -- especially G&S and R&H. Some on Lerner and Lowe, Loesser, Porter, Gershwin, Kander and Ebb, Harnick and Bock -- and some more "independants" ie Hair and Man of LaMancha...maybe the last three weeks of the class was spent on 70s -forward, and the majority of that time was devoted to Sondheim. (Keep in mind this was back in 95, when Rent was first appearing on radars). My prof. HATED ALW, so only talked about his first three shows because he respected them, but talked in very derogatory terms about the rest of the Webber canon. He was very anti-spectacle, so had little fondness for Miss Saigon, though he did like Les Mis as I recall. (He actually wrote a book about musicals called "Our Musicals, Our Selves" -- his name is John Bush Jones, you can get the book on amazon, it's an interesting read). Anyway, my point (other than shilling for my old prof. apparently) is no one who claims to know about musicals can POSSIBLY expected to be taken seriously without some knowledge of history.

Hi, Shirley Temple Pudding.

#16

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 2:37pm

Look, it's a psychological reality that people think that what happened in their lifetimes is the most important stuff ever. It's a natural extension of our egotism. Why shouldn't that extend to musicals? As far as way too many people are concerned, musical theater began with Rent because that's how they remember it.

#17

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 7:47pm

I'm 14, and I would love to expand my knowledge on those "Golden Age" musicals...My interest in Broadway only started recently, but I really want to know more about those older shows..but I don't really have any cast recordings accessible to me. Or anyone to tell me about them because I always feel stupid...

This is my signature.

Updated On: 6/27/05 at 07:47 PM

#18

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 7:52pm

I think it's like movies and music. We all like listening and watching contemporary stuff, but when it all comes down to it, we revert back to classics. Look at all the remakes hollywood has done this summer- maybe Broadway is on that track. I'm waiting for the music industry to take note.

#19

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 7:53pm

i dont think you should judge an age group... just assume what they are like!? and while, yes, i see you do have a point i think that if the first musical you discover is Rent than yes- you're going to want to explore things that sounds and feel like Rent, not musicals that, in their opinion might sound like a granny show.

"Picture "The View," with the wisecracking, sympathetic sweethearts of that ABC television show replaced by a panel of embittered, suffering or enraged Arab women" -the Times review of Black Eyed

#20

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 7:57pm

Are you calling West Side Story a granny show?

Hi, Shirley Temple Pudding.

#21

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 8:04pm

"if the first musical you discover is Rent than yes- you're going to want to explore things that sounds and feel like Rent, not musicals that, in their opinion might sound like a granny show."

I get that...and I'm ok with that fromthe fan's point of view. But anyone who honestly wants to pursue musical theatre as a career needs to expand their horizons. I mean there would obviously be a progression of the types of shows you would listen to. And once again, you don't have to like it, you just need to respect it enough to know the basics.

#22

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 8:05pm

I'm turning 14 in two weeks and I love many Golden Age musicals. My favorite musicals just happen toebe Piazza and Cabaret. Is there anything wrong with me thinking that musicals written after 1960 are my favorites over musicals written before? Piazza is a beautiful piece of theater. Are you trying to say it's inferior just because it's newer?

#23

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 8:08pm

Not at all, but I do think if you have an understanding of the history, it will color your view of the show. Piazza to someone who only listens to Rent or Wicked could very well get lost in the music...and not in a good way. I myself love Piazza.

#24

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 8:25pm

I think the point is to listen to a plethera of shows to get a feel for everything, and not just listen to one genre or time period over another because it's the first thing you heard and liked... oh, and I think an important lesson I learned is to give stuff a chance- don't listen to one song then throw it out.

#25

re: Message Board trend

Posted: 6/27/05 at 8:26pm

MFL, whoever said post-1960 musicals are inferior? People are just deploring a lack of perspective on the part of some posters who don't even seem to realize that musicals existed before their lifetimes. That said, I rather share the love for classics than just sniff at people who don't know about them.

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