Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
ggersten
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/11/06
#0Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 1:11pmWhat is the origin of the phrase "11 O'Clock Number"? I know it's current usage as the big second act number near the end of Act II (of course I could be wrong about that), but don't know it's origin. I would think most shows would be over well before 11:00. Did it perhaps refer to a song done at 11:00 at the post-show party due to popular demand?
#1re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 1:12pmI believe most shows used to start at 8:30, hence ending a bit after 11.
#2re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 1:50pmexactly
#3re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 2:05pmYes, I agree- and also many numbers are like the "climax" or the "big end"- like NO GOOD DEED in WICKED, BETRAYED in THE PRODUCERS... Like the last minute hoorah...
TxTwoStep
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/24/03
#4re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 2:08pmit seems like I have also heard it referenced as the "ten o'clock number"...
Gothampc
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/20/03
#5re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 2:10pmMany years ago, shows would start at 8:30pm. So for example, if it was Carousel, the song "You'll Never Walk Alone" would hit about 11pm with the show ending around 11:30.
uclaactor
Swing Joined: 7/13/06
#6re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 2:12pm
The term is roughly 80 years old, when A) shows started later, and B) shows ran much longer, occasionally with 2 intermissions. Since most composers of "Zenith Era" and earlier musicals put the showstopping song as the last solo in the show, that number usually hit right around 11:00pm.
Updated On: 7/13/06 at 02:12 PM
#7re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 2:13pm
Imagine New York society back in the early part of the 20th century heading to an opera at 8:40. They wouldn't be out until almost midnight. Does anyone know when the change came about?
Also, before shows began at 8:30, didn't they start at 8:40? Or was this just the official start time for the shows billed to start at 8:30? (ie. Today's official start time is something like 8:07...) And does the song "About a Quarter to Nine" from 42ND STREET have anything to do with curtain times?
uclaactor
Swing Joined: 7/13/06
#8re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 2:15pmyes, "Quarter to Nine" from 42ND STREET refers to "curtain time"
Gothampc
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/20/03
#9re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 2:19pm
"Imagine New York society back in the early part of the 20th century heading to an opera at 8:40."
Something that I heard one time was that in the early part of the 20th century women usually didn't leave their seats. They wore chin to shoe dresses with corsets, and couldn't bother to undo them to go to the bathroom. So the men would go out at intermission to smoke and drink while the women stayed in their seats.
JBSinger
Broadway Star Joined: 11/12/04
#10re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 3:06pm
I would imagine as soon as Air conditioning was introduced to the Theatre's that the show times became earlier. Sometimes, shows would close for the summer, re-opening in the fall because the theatres were too hot.
shows were very long. Try doing an uncut version of virtually any R&H show, with every encore. They go on forever even with effective scene changes. I, for one, am glad that shows start at 8:00 and like it even better when they are at 7:30! I got work the next day!
#11re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 5:42pm
The change in curtain time came in 1971/72 when all the Broadway theatres decided to move curtain time back and hour from 8:30 to 7:30.
It was a move to stimulate business hurt by news stories of street crime. Times Square was deemed unsafe after 11 PM so the idea was to get theatre-goers home earlier. Restaurants complained that it cut into supper hour business but many performers felt audiences were more responsive being less tired and having had less time for food and drink.
Though deemed a success the end result was a compromise: 8:00 became the new start time.
Cast albums are NOT "soundtracks."
Live theatre does not use a "soundtrack." If it did, it wouldn't be live theatre!
I host a weekly one-hour radio program featuring cast album selections as well as songs by cabaret, jazz and theatre artists. The program, FRONT ROW CENTRE is heard Sundays 9 to 10 am and also Saturdays from 8 to 9 am (eastern times) on www.proudfm.com
#12re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 6:07pmI think anytime before 8 is too early to eat dinner. Maybe it's jus tme, but the only time I eat dinner before 8 is if I'm seeing a show.
#13re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 6:28pmYou are all so wrong. It's called that because it occurs about the time the 11th cell phone goes off . . .
To Kill A Mockingbird
Jon
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/20/04
#14re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 6:30pmWell, I'd guess that 99% of Americans eat dinner around six PM.
#15re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 6:45pm
Dinner at 8? Early days of theatre were more European. About the heat. And dinner after theatre around 12. The big song came in at 11. Nowadays, if you're past 11ish, you're into overtime with the unions. That's why shows like Les Miz, would start PROMPTLY at 8pm.
True, nowadays most americans eat at 6:30 and that is why all of our great theatre restaurants have been torn down to become tourist Mall restaurants. No place to go for the actors and crew.
Ummm, what time does the Olive Garden close? Gee, Nathan, Bernadette, I guess I won't be seeing you there...?
"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana." GMarx
jo
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/15/03
#16re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 7:09pm
Re pre-theatre dining --
Some restaurants that serve full-course pre-theatre dinner now give you a choice of a 5:30 pm or 6:00 pm seating. A little early, but then I don't have to keep looking at my watch all the time ... I have time to enjoy the meal and look forward to the theatre performance that follows 
#17re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 7:16pmI know, but depending on the show, are you sure you want a full stomach?
"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana." GMarx
#18re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 7:46pm
"yes, "Quarter to Nine" from 42ND STREET refers to "curtain time"
No, the song has nothing to do with curtain time. It has to do with a date:
Life begins when somebody's eyes look into your own.
Life begins when you get your guy all alone.
From morning until twilight,
I don't know I'm alive,
But I know love begins at eight forty-five....
#19re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 8:05pmI always took that song as a love for the theatre. Their love for the theatre and performing would start again every night at curtain time.
#20re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 8:38pm
This thread just prompted me to listen to the song again, haven't heard it in a bit. 
I thought it had to do with the curtain time, too. :-P
Cheers,
Christopher
nycdncr
Leading Actor Joined: 7/25/04
#21re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/13/06 at 11:49pmmaybe it's a double entendre.
TxTwoStep
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/24/03
#22re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 7/14/06 at 5:31pm
Dorothy and Peggy:
Life begins when somebody's eyes look into your own.
Life begins when you get your guy all alone.
From morning until twilight,
I don't know I'm alive,
But I know love begins at eight forty-five.
The stars are gonna twinkle and shine
This evening,
About a quarter to nine.
His lovin' arms (His lovin' arms)
Are gonna tenderly twine (Are gonna tenderly twine)
Around me, around a quarter to nine.
I know I won't be late,
'Cause at half past eight
I'm gonna be there.
I'll be waitin' where the lane begins,
Waitin' for you on needles and pins.
And then the world is gonna be mine,
This evening, about a quarter to nine.
I know I won't be late,
'Cause at half past eight
I'm gonna be there.
I'll be waitin' where the lane begins,
Waitin' for you on needles and pins.
And then the world is gonna be mine,
This evening, about a quarter to nine.
My feeling is that if you try to make sense of the original film play for 42nd STREET, it's really hard. Then the stage adaptation just kind of gave up, which is evident in the way that the credits originally read: "Crossovers and Lead-Ins by Michael Stewart" (as opposed to "Book" or "Libretto" which was updated for the revival to reflect Mark Bramble's tinkering). It's mainly about the songs themselves and particularly Champion's production numbers. That being said, "Quarter to Nine" is from the show-within-the-show, PRETTY LADY, as Brock explains in the scene which leads to it. As such, it is unlikely to refer to the theatre, but to the romantic comedy that was originally intended to feature the "juvenile" (Billy Lawlor) and the "lead" (first Brock, then Sawyer). A glimpse of this musical comedy is seen in the brief parody scene they do in Act One, prior to "Getting to Be a Habit", which uses the character names of PRETTY LADY. The only other songs we see from the show-within-the-show are DAMES, WE'RE IN THE MONEY, and SHUFFLE OFF TO BUFFALO, and the 42nd STREET Finale, which oddly juxtaposes a tap ballet "tragedy" with Billy's character as a soldier who is shot onto what is supposed to be a light musical comedy. All logic is abandoned.
thevolleyballer
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/29/04
#23re: Origin of Phrase 11 O'Clock Number
Posted: 8/19/06 at 4:09pmOops. Wrong 11 O'clock thread. :) Updated On: 8/19/06 at 04:09 PM
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