Pippin revival question

[Inigomontoya]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 6:43am

If I remember correctly in the original production there were some strong disagreement between Fosse and Schwartz about the company and the leading players - are they only exist in Pippin's head or not, trying to convince him to commit suicide or not.

I'm asking this because I'm interested to know in which direction is the current revival took this notion?

[Movidude742]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 7:21am

It is still up for debate, but the conceit of everyone but Pippin having done the show numerous times before but it is his first time in the part is more clearly stated this time around.

Especially once Catherine is introduced, with age jokes including a comment on how many more times can she play the part. Also the change the made to the ending, supports that it is happening to him. I don't recall Pippin calling out to the troupe to ask what's next after he runs away from Catherine's farm in previous productions, but it has been 20+ years since I last saw it in complete form instead of the horrible DVD edit.

But here comes the debate. The Leading Player still says to the audience that the troupe is always there in your head so if you want have such an amazing finale yourself, they are waiting for you. So that sort of goes to being in your head.

in the end, cant' the answer be . . . both?

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 9:09am

in the end, cant' the answer be . . . both?

Not really, unless you think the Players are a band of roving sociopaths.

[Inigomontoya]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 11:13am

May I ask what's the changing that was made to the ending?

[Brian07663NJ]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 11:18am

simple.... Suspension of Disbelief.

Yes it can be both. It doesn't 'have' to complete 'work out'.

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 11:47am

The script for the revival is the revised version of the script that has been licensed through MTI for (I'm not sure how long). If you have seen any high school production recently, those lines and the act break and the new ending are all in it.

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 12:32pm

simple.... Suspension of Disbelief.

I hate this argument, because it allows people to completely ignore the fact that suspension of disbelief only works if there is a logical base without major contradiction to begin with. Either they're in his head, or they're not. There isn't really an "in between" there.

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 12:37pm

This needed a separate post;

May I ask what's the changing that was made to the ending?

===== SPOILER ======

As scripted:

After the Leading Player and troupe leave and Pippin sings his little reprise of "Magicshows and Miracles," he and Catherine begin to exit; Theo (played by a boy of about fifteen) remains on stage and very softly begins to sing to himself "Corner of the Sky" a capella; Pippin and Catherine turn to look at him in dismay as the Leading Player and troupe sneak back on and put all their focus on him; as the Leading Player holds out his hand to Theo, the lights get very bright on him and then black out.

===== END SPOILER =====

The action may not be exact in this revival; I haven't seen it yet. But this is the "new ending" that has been in the show since the early 2000s.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 1:58pm

Which raises the question--is Theo one of the players then? or not? :P

[BwayFan4]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 4:20pm

Spoilers...

To answer your question, Theo and his mother (Katherine) are players, but yet they are outliers. Who knows why (maybe because she's a single mother or just different from the rest). But they are both players. And I think one of the great things about the current production is you can see her breaking out of her role in the show as she and Pippin fall in love for real. And of course The Leading Player is livid about it ("It says read the line NAGGINGLY", etc.).

So at the end, when Katherine and Theo come back onto the stage, seeing them solidifies Pippin's decision to ignore the goading of the other players and not throw himself into the fire. Of course this is what makes The Leading Player furious where she strips all 3 of them of anything "spectacular" and rips the tent down leaving them standing alone.

Basically, Katherine and Theo have defected from the circus troupe to leave with Pippin, which of course has technically never happened before since this troupe preys on people with wild aspirations (that the story implies can never come true) trying to get them to kill themselves using the same story of "Pippin" over and over and over again...

It's interesting because when I would tell people who have seen Pippin many times over the years that the show is about a sadistic traveling theatrical troupe (in this case, a circus) that tries to get people to kill themselves, they look at me blankly as if they never realized that before. I think this production makes it totally clear.

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 4:47pm

...okay, let me paste some of what Stephen Schwartz said about this:

"...I think the way to think about the Players is to realize that they are actually in Pippin's head, just as we all have those internalized voices that tell us we're not good enough, rich enough, beautiful enough, etc., and that we have to make our goals conform to the shallow and misplaced goals we see touted by the media and our so-called societal leaders. The Players are not so much malevolent as they are eternally cynical and dissatisfied, because nothing in real life can be glamorous enough or spectacular enough to achieve the sort of romanticized perfection we carry in the movie in our heads."

The original conceit when Schwartz was developing it, yes, was that they were a literal commedia dell'arte troupe, but that was not the case in the final product. They're in his head. Period. They're not any kind of literal troupe. The players are in Pippin's mind. In fact, the whole show is Pippin's fever dream, a hallucination full of the magic he never found in his life, all happening in the moment before he kills himself.

His family is populated by perverse stereotypes, his fantasies filled with frightening characters of his own creation. The spectacle is symbolic of what Pippin is building "extraordinary" up to be in his head, of what he thinks he must achieve. It's not literal spectacle. In reality, Pippin has been causing himself to fail at everything throughout the show, and he has been convincing himself to commit suicide.

The show has essentially been Pippin with a (metaphorical) gun to his head, considering what led him here (think an extended rendition of "Bye Bye Life" from All That Jazz, another Fosse product). And when Catherine and Theo break ranks with the troupe, it's not them literally fed up with playing medieval Manson family. It's that for once Pippin didn't fail at something, he rose to the occasion as a lover and as a father, and he realizes that whether it's "extraordinary" or not, he now has that meaning in his life that he wanted. He has someone to live for. If only he could protect his (now-)son from the same journey...

Updated On: 5/3/13 at 04:47 PM

[BwayFan4]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 4:54pm

Whether they are in his head or not, they are still a theatrical troupe of players for the purposes of the story. Whether they actually walk the planet or not isn't really relevant, I don't think... I sure don't want to find them and walk into their tent. lol

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 5:00pm

I'm spoiled by my bootleg of the World AIDS Day benefit concert rendition. I honestly wish Ben Vereen would pop out of the fire and do the finale at least once in the current production. It would be the added thrill, and a nice nod to the original "Old Man" character that formed the basis for the Leading Player in an early version of the show.

Updated On: 5/3/13 at 05:00 PM

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 5:11pm

Whoops. Wrong thread.

Updated On: 5/3/13 at 05:11 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/3/13 at 6:07pm

g.d.e.l.g.i.'s explanation works for me.

For me, the play is so presentational, questions like "are they real or in his head" don't really concern me while the show is unfolding.

[darquegk]

Posted: 12/8/13 at 11:24pm

Two things. First- the revival is NOT the MTI revised script, but a new edition based on the MTI Revised Script but with new punch lines, additional reprises and numerous tweaks.

Second, my reading of the Players (and you may not agree) is that they are neither entirely real nor unreal within the story. I read Pippin as an allegory about mental illness, with the Leading Player representing the nagging subconscious voice of Pippin's disorder, which I suspect to be bipolar disorder or possibly BPD based on numerous "symptoms" the story seems to suggest. The whole show is not a "dream of Pippin's before he kills himself," at least, not to me. Rather, within the reality of the allegory, this is how Pippin's world works.

[ARTc3]

Posted: 12/8/13 at 11:52pm

Pippin is a theatrical production. As such it lives in its own world with its own boundaries. I would suggest that over analyzing Pippin provides far more "holes" than could possibly be explained.

I do believe this productions ending structurally works better, but I also appreciated the introspective nature of the original Broadway ending: "How do you feel now, Pippin?" "Trapped, which isn't bad for a musical comedy."