Ragtime production in black face!! so horrified!!!- Page 3

[jamoca5]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 10:32am

Is anybody else wondering if they kept Coalhouse's line about coon songs and how "white men sang them in blackface"?

[Greatwhiteway3]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 12:07pm

Silly post and just representative of how extreme political correctness has gone. This seems to go over the top when it comes to black people. Liberal white America is so guilt ridden with the horrible treatment of blacks during slavery 150 years ago that they trip over themselves apolgizing. You see NO where near the outrage when people imitate Hispanics or Asians or Arabs or Indians (ever hear someone put on a bad Indian accent? Do you tell them how repulsed you are??) etc etc etc.

This production was put on in a small city in Ireland. There is probably not 1 black person there. Even if it was in Dublin where
there is a small black population, you would then have to find the subsection of people that are musical theatre people!!!

These artists wanted to share great theatre. They Werent making a farce . They weren't doing Sambo or singing Mammy or Amos and Andy.

So that leaves 1 option. small theatres where there are minimal minority communities are not allowed to perform various shows? No
Ragtime, no South Pacific? No Miss Saigon etc etc. Are people
upset that Brian Stokes Mitchell is going to play Henry Higgins?? An early 1900s
British Man? Or played Sweeny Todd?? Or Don Quixote? (LOVE Brian BTW!)

Lighten up folks .

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 12:30pm

"Perhaps, but more accurately, you are stupid for deciding to go ahead with Ragtime in particular and not pick something else based on your talent pool."

I have to agree with Lizzy here (well, I might omit the "stupid" part). There are so many shows out there, why on earth pick one when your talent pool doesn't fit the casting, unless you're trying to make some sort of point?

[THDavis]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 1:01pm

I guess I can say that I wouldn't ever produce a show that has a large number of black characters if I didn't have the talent pool to cast from, but I really don't think it's that disgusting. It comes from the a very racist tradition which wasn't really seen as very racist in the times, but on the same hand it's just a white person being black for a show... I guess I don't understand the biases of this. As previously stated, many people have changed their ethnicity with makeup for movies and plays before and it's not meant to be seen as racist or limiting. A black actress could never play Glinda, but we don't see that as racist?

[romgitsean]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 1:24pm

I can't add much that's already been said. My question is, why? Why would they do Ragtime if they didn't have the actors for it? That's my question with many white-dominated theatre groups that require more ethnically descriptive parts. Stick to what you can do.

I mean, I'm sure Ireland would be mad as all hell if an all black troupe in white face did "The Pirate Queen" or "Riverdance" or something, because it would look like they were mocking Irish people.

It doesn't seem to me that they're intending to be racist, at least I don't think they were, and mock the minorities-but it's really the connotation of blacks being ostracized in the theatre, as they once were.

My philosophy is, if you don't have the group to carry the production, don't do it. There's many great shows out there. For instance, at my school this year, the only reason I would consider doing "The Wiz" is due to the fact we have a large black population. I don't mean to sound racist; but I'm trying to pick the shows that would be more suitable for the audience and the performers, and many of the kids sing in their baptist church choir, and "The Wiz" music is very akin to black gospel music in some ways.

On that note though, it doesn't really annoy me when all-white groups do "The Wiz", because it's usually all in good fun--but then the message of the show kind of gets lost. "The Wiz" is really about identity in a lot of ways, something black people were still trying to find in America during the 1970's, just getting out of all the race riots and such in the decade previous. Most shows that have black characters are usually written for black people for a reason, there's usually a reason for it.

Interestingly enough, I saw a production of "Rent" recently--a school version, where every one of the leads was white (is that proper grammar? Was white?), there were two black people in the ensemble, a few asians, and I think one Indian girl, but I think that was it. And all of them actually did really well, for the most part. I mean, it felt like there was an element missing with Angel or Mimi not being hispanic or Collins, Joanne or Benny not being black--but it just kinda proved "Rent" is the kind of show that still really does work regardless of racial barriers. Race is not a very important part of "Rent", in my opinion. Very few times are the character's ethnicities really raced. I know Mimi mentions hers in "Out Tonight", and I feel like somewhere Collins or Angel mentions theres, but it's not really important.

I think color-blind casting on the whole is acceptable, but it really depends on the show and if race is a big factor in it.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 1:43pm

A black actress could never play Glinda, but we don't see that as racist?

Because it's not.

[CateBroadway]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 5:35pm

Wait, why couldn't there be a black Glinda?

At this point contributing to the argument of this production isn't really going to do much but for what it's worth, here's my two cents.

I think this production was not meant to be RACIST, rather to be RACIAL. This theatre is supposedly reputable and it's my guess that the director assured the actors that they were doing blackface for a reason and were making a statement.

That having been said, I still think it is in very poor taste. My guess is they were able to make such a big statement because the theatre is located in Ireland and they were banking on the fact that the theatre going public is almost entirely white. Although I'd like to see how confident the actor's would be in this director's vision if they were performing before a crowd of all black people.

I also find it sketchy because historically, Ireland is one of the most racially intolerant European countries. Hate crimes are on the rise there and they currently have no law protecting citizens from them. Initially when I saw this clip I was incredibly offended. Then I thought about it and what the director might be trying to achieve and became less so. But seeing the ruckus this has caused I think everyone is justified in being offended. If there are this many outraged people in the US (what I think is a pretty racially sensitive country), how must have this been perceived in one that is not?

[bwaylvsong]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 5:46pm

^Glinda can't be black because her naturally blonde hair is referred to many times in the script.

[CateBroadway]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 6:02pm

"Glinda can't be black because her naturally blonde hair is referred to many times in the script."

Um, am I the only one who thinks it's slightly more appropriate to put a black girl in a blonde wig than say, oh an entire cast of white people onstage with shoe polish on their face??

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 6:22pm

Hairspray didn't think so.
Big, Blond,and Beautiful

[THDavis]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 6:34pm

That was supposed to be my point, I guess I just feel that theatre has its own set of rules and I find it more detrimental to our societies advancement to not cast an actor based on their race as opposed to their level of talent.

[sarla]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 7:02pm

"Hate crimes are on the rise there and they currently have no law protecting citizens from them."

It's amazing what you can learn after a little bit of research;

"The Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act 1989" makes it an offense to incite hatred against any group of persons on account of their race, color, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, ethnic or national origins, or membership of the Traveller community, an indigenous minority group."

[Mamie]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 7:39pm

"I also find it sketchy because historically, Ireland is one of the most racially intolerant European countries."

I'm glad you mentioned this. It does add an extra layer of suspicion to what they were trying to accomplish with that production.

I've never met a more racially intollerant group of people in my life than the Irish. Unfortunately I know this because I'm related to a rather large clan over there and I can't stand to talk to the family there (or here) for more than a few minutes. Why they're that way, I have no idea. I just know it to be too true.

[CateBroadway]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 10:01pm

Sarla,
The trouble with doing your research via Wikipedia is that it is often out of context and you are rarely given all the facts. While the Incitement to Hatred Act is on the law books as a means to convict, there exists no law to sentence anyone who may have violated it. No consequence=No protection.

"The Criminal Code of Ireland does not contain provisions that expressly enable the racist or other bias motives of the offender to be taken into account by the courts as an aggravating circumstance when sentencing."

Having spent a semester abroad in Dublin, I was incredibly shocked by the level of casual racism and especially homophobia rampant in daily life.
Hate Crime Report Card - Ireland

[Plum]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 11:14pm

1. Intent isn't an excuse. Sorry, but you don't get to invalidate the offense someone else has taken by saying "They didn't mean it". If you step on someone's foot accidentally, you say "Sorry" because you hurt them, even though you didn't mean to. Same thing here - if someone's hurt, it's not cool to dismiss their hurt because it makes you uncomfortable.

2. That doesn't make people who offend evil racists. They're just privileged, which gives them the ability to be oblivious enough to use blackface. (And if you think blackface-style imagery of black people's faces is no problem in the UK, please Google "golliwog".)

2a. We are all privileged along one line or another, and that's no individual's fault. Nor does it make anyone a bad person. It's just something you need to watch out for when you start discussing identity politics.

3. No two oppressions are the same. So please don't have a "my oppression is bigger" contest and dismiss the hurt caused by yellowface, for example, or point out that you think other groups are treated worse than black people are. It always ends up derailing discussion and again, it's a way of dismissing or even appropriating other people's hurt.

I'd go into the casting problems quagmire but I don't feel like banging my head against a wall today. I did enough of that for work this past week.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 11:18pm

Plum, love your list. You must read Racialicious often. :)

[Plum]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 11:34pm

Let's just say that this isn't the first time a community I'm in has gotten into a racially charged discussion. Also, I was an active Avatar: The Last Airbender protester back when the casting was first released. It was...educational.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 11:39pm

I think I'm breaking a promise to myself to post again in thread on BWW about race, but I'm used to disappointing myself.

What Plum said is pretty spot on.

I just wonder why is that whenever the subject of racial issues on the stage comes up, white people always gotta get all defensive about how come we can't have a white Effie or a white Joe in Showboat or whatever. I just figure if the same people can't get it even though it is discussed over and over that there's very little point in repeating the same things over and over again.

[bwaylvsong]

Posted: 1/31/10 at 11:48pm

"Um, am I the only one who thinks it's slightly more appropriate to put a black girl in a blonde wig than say, oh an entire cast of white people onstage with shoe polish on their face??"

Noone is saying blackface is appropriate, or that putting a black girl in a blond wig is inappropriate. I was simply answering your question, and stating that a blond wig would not look natural on a black woman, and Glinda's blondness (is that a word?) is natural, unlike Motormouth Mabel's.

[Plum]

Posted: 2/1/10 at 1:13am

I just wonder why is that whenever the subject of racial issues on the stage comes up, white people always gotta get all defensive about how come we can't have a white Effie or a white Joe in Showboat or whatever.

That's privilege. It makes you able to say that you're not affected by racism because you're white, when in actuality racism gives white people a distinct step up in life. Every disadvantage an oppressed group suffers has a corresponding advantage given to the privileged group.

Privilege is being able to live your everyday life without being made aware of your race/religion/sexual orientation. Or, let me give a less contentious example - if you can walk into a restaurant and order whatever you want without worrying that the dish will contain an ingredient that could give you a fatal allergic reaction...you're privileged. That's an advantage in life. You don't think about it because it's eating, you know? But it's still there. Same goes for the advantages of being white, straight, and male.

Privilege is never having to worry that what you do represents your whole race. It means not worrying that the white guy who seems to like you just fetishizes Asian girls. It's not considering using just your first initial on a paper, so you can hide your gender and increase your chances of publication. It's not wearing a Star of David necklace because you're afraid someone might attack you because of it. It's being able to use any stall you want in a public bathroom. Hell, it's being able to get into a public bathroom. Privilege is never having to think about those things, which is why it's invisible to the holder.

Which, again, doesn't make people from non-oppressed cultures a bunch of bigots. Privilege didn't come from anything you did or said - it's just there. You can't get rid of it, and oppression on one dimension does not negate privilege on another. They all exist at the same time.

Anyway, privilege is what lets people make the "reverse racism" argument in earnest, really thinking that a white person not being able to play Effie is the same thing as a black person realizing that people of his/her race haven't been written into most of the American theatrical canon at all. Since they don't see the white advantage, a white person losing out on a role is the same thing as a black person losing out on one.


Urk. I said I wouldn't go into this, and now look what I've done. Sorry for the length, folks.





*Racism isn't the same as sexism isn't the same as heteronormativity, I know. They all confer different disadvantages and affect interact with each other in complex ways. I'm not trying to paint them as being equal, just giving small examples of everyday privilege.
Updated On: 2/1/10 at 01:13 AM

[Marie Christine2]

Posted: 2/1/10 at 1:26am

"Glinda can't be black because her naturally blonde hair is referred to many times in the script."

It is not impossible for black and mixed race people to have naturally blonde hair. It's more common than you think.

[Greatwhiteway3]

Posted: 2/1/10 at 1:46am

Offically the dumbest post of the week. We'll settle
it. Cast shows strictly as they are written. So let's not see Audra McDonald playing Mary Poppins which she said is a dream of hers.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 2/1/10 at 2:33am

You are an idiot. Really, you are.

Plum, thanks for that.

Also, Glinda is from effing Oz, y'all. I don't know why she couldn't be black. If you accept the girl girl, why can you not accept the black girl?

[bwaylvsong]

Posted: 2/1/10 at 2:41am

"It is not impossible for black and mixed race people to have naturally blonde hair. It's more common than you think."

I neither said it was impossible nor did I even mention mixed-race people. Of course a child of a black parent and a white/blonde parent could have blond hair; that would look natural.

"Offically the dumbest post of the week. We'll settle
it. Cast shows strictly as they are written. So let's not see Audra McDonald playing Mary Poppins which she said is a dream of hers."

Assuming this is a response to my post, I never said that either! Glinda's blond hair is a major plot point. Mary Poppins' race is not! I'd love to see Audra as Mary Poppins! But for her or any actress who cannot look naturally blond (I even know some white actresses who look totally unnatural in a blond wig!) to play Glinda, it would take more than just a line tweak here and there.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 2/1/10 at 2:43am

It's Oz, y'all.