Size of Orchestra back in the "Golden Age"

[FosseBoi]

Posted: 10/28/07 at 8:42pm

Could someone tell me the average size of an orchestra for a musical back in the Golden Age? What about now?

[Gypsy9]

Posted: 10/29/07 at 11:50am

I believe that the average size of a pit orchestra back in the Golden Age was 26 players. Smaxie reported recently that the original pit orchestra for GYPSY was 29 players. Also, the size of the orchestra had to do with the seating capacity of the theatre. Today, it is more like 18 players on the average, although when I attended THE APPLE TREE at the Studio 54 Theatre, the orchestra size was more like 12 players, despite that theatre's relatively large size. I'm quite sure that Local 802 of the Musician's Union negotiates each orchestra's size with the producers of a given show, taking into account the theatre's size, with the producers trying to get away with the smallest orchestra size possible. Also, synthesizers now "replace" certain instruments, allowing for smaller pit orchestras. Bring back the good old days.

Updated On: 10/29/07 at 11:50 AM

[Thesbijean]

Posted: 10/29/07 at 1:11pm

This has been discussed SO many times, and you are incorrect.

Each Broadway theatre has a pre-determined minimum for orchestra players, which can however be negotiated with the theatre owners and 802, but very rarely. In most cases, if you want 15 but the minimum is 18, you'll have to write 18 paychecks, and 3 lucky musicians get paid for doing nothing.

[morosco]

Posted: 10/29/07 at 2:17pm

"Each Broadway theatre has a pre-determined minimum for orchestra players, which can however be negotiated with the theatre owners and 802, but very rarely."

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm thinking that renegotations aren't a rare thing anymore. Spelling Bee, Ave Q, Chicago, Grease, Jersey Boys, Spring Awakening, and Xanadu immediately come to mind.

[Smaxie]

Posted: 10/29/07 at 2:39pm

Richard Rodgers supposedly had a pit of 40 for the original Broadway production of Carousel, although that orchestration rarely gets used.

Most of the Golden Age show orchestrations used a number of players in the mid to high 20s. Usually something like 8 to 12 strings, three trumpets, two or three trombones or a French horn or two depending upon the sound of the score, five reeds, piano, harp, bass, guitar/banjo, drums, percussion

[morosco]

Posted: 10/29/07 at 2:46pm

Here's an interesting article (from 2003) on this subject

The History of Broadway Theatre Minimums Updated On: 10/29/07 at 02:46 PM

[morosco]

Posted: 10/29/07 at 2:57pm

Minimums in effect until March 4, 2013:

Broadway, Minskoff, St. James, New Amsterdam, Hilton, and Marquis – 19

Majestic, Palace, Lunt-Fontanne, Imperial, Gershwin, Shubert, and Winter Garden – 18

Neil Simon, Al Hirschfeld, and Richard Rodgers – 14

August Wilson and Broadhurst- 12

Barrymore, Music Box, and Gerald Schoenfeld – 9

Brooks Atkinson, Eugene O’Neill, and Bernard Jacobs – 8

Longacre and Nederlander – 4

Ambassador, Belasco, Booth, Circle in the Square, Cort, Golden, Walter Kerr, and Lyceum – 3

These minimums could change due to “special situations” (demonstrable reasons for a musical production to be presented with an orchestra composed of fewer musicians than the minimum required.)

[don logan]

Posted: 10/29/07 at 3:57pm

Gypsy : the issue of musicans being paid for doing nothing because of minimums has been resolved for decades.

Minimums in effect until March 4, 2013:

Broadway, Minskoff, St. James, New Amsterdam, Hilton, and Marquis – 19

Majestic, Palace, Lunt-Fontanne, Imperial, Gershwin, Shubert, and Winter Garden – 18

Neil Simon, Al Hirschfeld, and Richard Rodgers – 14

August Wilson and Broadhurst- 12

Barrymore, Music Box, and Gerald Schoenfeld – 9

Brooks Atkinson, Eugene O’Neill, and Bernard Jacobs – 8

Longacre and Nederlander – 4

Ambassador, Belasco, Booth, Circle in the Square, Cort, Golden, Walter Kerr, and Lyceum – 3

These minimums could change due to “special situations” (demonstrable reasons for a musical production to be presented with an orchestra composed of fewer musicians than the minimum required.)

Also, the producers try to get a special situations applied to almost all new shows and usually get them.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 10/29/07 at 4:00pm

Well, at least there are special situations.

I think that both small and large orchestras have equal power to astound, although I will always prefer a smaller, tighter broadway ensemble to a large group of players in a broadway pit that's usually 1/4 to 1/2 filled with subs, which makes it muddy and rhythmically imprecise.

While I love the golden age recordings, very few of them have EXCELLENT orchestras on them, and being a musician, that almost ruins it for me.

[don logan]

Posted: 10/29/07 at 4:05pm

Fenchurch: all shows have subs, regardless of the size of the orchestra. Also, the tightness of the orchestra has nothing to do with it size, but the quality of musicianship and conductor. If the subs aren't up to par, it's the conductors fault. Soemtimes the subs are better than the regulars! I try to get subs who are better than me.
I don't get why so many people on this board are anti-musician. We get no love here.

[morosco]

Posted: 10/29/07 at 5:01pm

"I don't get why so many people on this board are anti-musician. We get no love here."

You got my love! I greatly admire and respect the musicians and their contribution to a show.

[don logan]

Posted: 10/29/07 at 8:26pm

We love you too, morosco. You are among the few.

[jv92]

Posted: 10/29/07 at 8:38pm

It's not LIVE THEATRE without musicians playing LIVE. I'm certainly not anti-musician. They play a very important part.

[Gypsy9]

Posted: 10/29/07 at 9:52pm

Where wrong, I stand corrected. I had forgotten that specific theatres have mandated minimums. But Smaxie and I agree with the average size of the orchestra back in the Golden Age.

Don Logan: The pit orchestra has always been very important to me, going back to 1951's FLAHOOLEY in its Philadelphia tryout. When bored by the action on stage, I will typically try to watch the pit conductor. Lehman Engel in the 1950's and 1960's was always great fun to watch--he was so enthusiastic. Today's pit conductors of note include Eric Stern(who I believe is now with XANADU) and Paul Gemignani, who has Engel's enthusiasm and attention to detail. In another life I would love to be a Broadway pit conductor.