Sondheim........could he really?

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 7:19pm

I was thinking over something today (because I have no life, lol). A lot of these young composers (Larson, JRB, etc.) are being compared to Sondheim. My question is, do you think that Sondheim could have written RENT, TICK TICK BOOM, PARADE, LAST FIVE YEARS, etc?

[StickToPriest]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 7:22pm

Yes, he could.

But why would he want to take a step down?

[localonecrew]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 7:22pm

could he write pop pablum? maybe if he picked up a bad cough syrup habit

[WayWicked]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 7:23pm

personally, I don't think Sondheim could have ever written RENT. He's not from the world of the street. He grew up rich and spoiled and that's not what RENT is about.

[StickToPriest]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 7:24pm

He didn't grow up Japanese....and he wrote PACIFIC OVERTURES, a brilliant look into Japanese culture.

Updated On: 9/4/04 at 07:24 PM

[leomaxfrank]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 7:26pm

it depends what you really mean by could.
is he able to? - yes.
stylistically, rock musicals aren't from his favorite bag of tricks.
Did people truly compare Larson to Sondheim?
i know people have made comments and comparisons with JRB and Guettel to Sondheim, but other than Sondheim being Larson's hero, i'm not sure people actually compared the work.

rich and spoiled??

Updated On: 9/4/04 at 07:26 PM

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 7:27pm

not really "compared" but like taking over where Sondheim left off.......does that make sense?

[StickToPriest]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 7:29pm

Left off?

I wasn't aware Sondheim was dead or retired.

[Chevstriss]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 7:30pm

I'm not sure that Sondheim realizes that he has "left off" yet.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 7:35pm

Ok, that didn't make sense. I meant.......well........I don't know. See what happens when I think?!?

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 7:39pm

Ok, let's see if I can explain this better. a few years before RENT, all there really was on broadway was rehash of old musicals, musicals based on movies, and Disney fluff. Then came RENT, with original music and whatnot. That is what I meant.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 7:59pm

It's not about a comparison, but speculation of who will carry the crown someday. It's really stupid speculation, though. They are all unique and none of them try to be Sondheim, so the argument is pointless.

[wickedfan]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 8:11pm

I don't think they could because what they write isn't the style of true Sondheim. Theirs is considered genius lyrics compared to what we see today. Sondheim is genius compared to anyone in any era (I think another genius is Lerner). I think if Maury Yeston wrote more scores as good as NINE than he would have no problem receiving that "title".

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 8:34pm

this isn't an argument. It was just something I thought of. Sorry for inconvencience everyone.

[SamIAm]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 8:41pm

Sondheim's style is not that of a Larsen or LaChiusa. They are all very unique.

I like Guettel and some of LaChiusa's work, but I think (though many have tried) it is hard to talk about a 'replacement' or heir apparent to Sondheim. He is truly unique and we are privileged to be alive while he is writing. He will be sorely missed but then before he started writing I'm sure there were those wondering who would come after Hammerstein and Gershwin.

[NoDayButToday2]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 9:10pm

you make an interesting point spider... my thoughts on it though is that sondheim is sondheim and larson is larson. they have 2 totaly diferent perspectives, and totaly diferent goals with their musicals. so no, i dont think sondheim could have taken over for the more modern composers, nor would he want to.

[Plum]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 9:25pm

If Sondheim had grown up in the 70's and 80's, he wouldn't have gone to the house of Oscar Hammerstein II to get away from his mother, because Hammerstein would have been long dead. And then who knows if he would have had the inspiration to write musicals at all?

Besides, Sondheim is classically trained, which gives him the foundation to write in many different styles while keeping his own voice. I think he can write in the pop idiom if he so chooses (isn't Company sorta poppy? Am I crazy?), but he prefers to range from classical waltzes to folk music to various kinds of pastiche. And the garbled singing style of rock and pop isn't well-suited to someone who writes such gems for lyrics.

[NuggetMonkeys]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 9:25pm

i'm sorry i missed this thread in its early stage...
i say that there needn't be any speculation on this matter, because Sondheim can do many wonderous feats with notes and words. As can JRB and Larson and many others ---- BUT not as well, by any means. Sondheim = 999,999,999 x Everyone else.
-d.b.j-

[timote316]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 9:37pm

All composers are different. Could Sondheim have written Rent? No, it wouldn't be the same. Could Larson have written, say, West Side Story? No, it wouldn't be the same. Could Sondheim write music for the story? Sure. Could Larson? Yeah. Sondheim is a great composer (or whatever you call him, you know what I mean lol), as is Larson. But they are different. They couldn't reproduce another's style, they have their own distinctive ones.

[Plum]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 9:45pm

Um...Sondheim only wrote the lyrics for West Side Story. The great Leonard Bernstein wrote the music.

Substitute Sweeney Todd and you should be fine.

[kissmycookie]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 11:09pm

spiderdj82: In theory, one could say Rent is a rehash of an opera... La Boheme

[Mattio98]

Posted: 9/4/04 at 11:30pm

The question kind of doesn't make sense because no two composers are the same. Could Sondheim write The Last 5 Years in his own style? Yes. Would it work as well? Who knows. Sondheim and these young composers he's compared to, like JRB, are similar because they are trying to revolutionize Broadway. They do things that most other people dare not do. Sondheim doesn't have the same influences as someone like JRB or Andrew Lippa so his idea of infusing different styles into his shows would come out completely different.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 12:29am

Well, first, Larson was no more "of the street" than Sondheim. As someone who lived in the East Vilage during the early and mid-90's and lived part of the life depicted in the show -- half my friends, straight and gay, were living with AIDS and I was friends with a lot of the squatters on 13th Street -- I saw "Rent" with several friends from the neighborhood when it debuted at New York Theatre Workshop and none of us were impressed (several walked out at intermission -- I stayed only because I thought there was a song or two that worked).

"Rent" had/has nothing whatsoever to do with the reality of living in the East Village in the 90's. The rumor around at the time was that it must have been written by somebody from Westchester or someplace similar who had maybe visited the neighborhood once or twice in the past, because anyone who actually lived there couldn't possibly have gotten so completely wrong. The music and the sensibility of the show felt entirely suburban to us -- the music was entirely disposable 70's middle-of-the-road pop and light rock -- some decent lyrics, but the SOUND was laughably, exactly the kind of stuff our out-of-town relatives thought might be cool.

In contrast, when "Hedwig" debuted a couple of years later, everybody I knew from the neighborhood freaked out and embraced it -- the score captured exactly what was happening musically at the time, to the point where, for a time, nearly every bar in the East Village had the cast album on their jukebox (a first, I believe, since the East Village has never been big on musical cast albums -- "Rent" NEVER made a single jukebox in the neighborhood, though I recall that it got played and booed by the crowd once or twice as a joke).

Larson was certainly quite promising (and he and Sondheim were friends at the time -- Sondheim believed he might be an important composer, being able to bring contemporary musical influences into the musical theatre). Larson never got the chance to fulfill his promise and even he knew that "Rent" wasn't a finished product during that last workshop at NYTW. While Larson was certainly talented, he hadn't quite figured out how to take truly contemporary rock and R&B music (i.e. from the 90's, not the 70's) and use it within a musical theatre context ("Hedwig" was a far closer reflection of that -- heck, even "Dreamgirls" sounded closer to the music actually coming out of most people's radios than anything in "Rent"..... the reason the "Rent" is still running is that "younger" traditional musical theatre fans in their 40's and 50's find the music to be close to the kind of pop music they grew up on).

So anyway, the original question was (I think) could Sondheim have written "Rent?" I doubt he'd have wanted to, being a child of the 40' and 50's, classically-trained and very much in love with the possibilities of an orchestra, more so than with what one can do with a small rock combo or a synthesizer. However, one looks at something like Sondheim's "Unworthy of Your Love" from "Assassins" for example -- a very catchy 70's style guitar ballad that Glenn Campbell or James Taylor would have been proud to have written. It's not the sort of thing that Sondheim is known for, but more so than perhaps any composer, he's able to adapt his style to suit and speak for a given character (whether the character "sings" in 19th century British musical hall style or 20's vaudeville-style or Japanese-inflected art song or 60's "mod" style). Hinkley, being very much a child of the 70's, Sondheim found the ability to write a song in the voice of the singer-songwriter style of that time.

Could he write an entire 70's-style score? or 80's? or 90's? He's and old man now, so I sincerely doubt such stuff appeals to him. But COULD he? I wouldn't put it past him.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 1:14am

"the reason the "Rent" is still running is that "younger" traditional musical theatre fans in their 40's and 50's find the music to be close to the kind of pop music they grew up on"

Margo, I love you to death and I totally respect what you say and take it all in as if it was passed through the hands of god himself. But, I am 21 (18 when I first heard RENT) and all of the people I have talked to that are RENT fanatics are my age, or a little older/younger. In fact, the majority of people in their 40's and 50's that I have seen/heard oft that have actually seen or heard RENT, thinks it's discusting with *GASP* gay men and aids. I don't know. I mean, I kind of understand where you are coming from and I pretty much agreed with you all the way until that one quote above. Also, people are making this WAY more serious than it was intended to be. It was just a thought that I had running through my mind because everyone who is new on the broadway composer circuit is compared to a famous person of the past and I was just wondering if the person they are being compared to could actually write a peice of music like the newcomers. It was kind of meant for people to have fun with but instead people took me WAY too seriously and acted like I threw a pie in God's face or something.

Updated On: 9/5/04 at 01:14 AM

[Mattio98]

Posted: 9/5/04 at 1:19am

Wonderful post Margo. I think you really nailed it. ALW's strength is also his ability to move easily throughout different genres of music. It's just that Sondheim does it a LOT better.