Sondheim and Prince dissed Chorus Line?- Page 4

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 11:47pm

Wow, cigarette burns don't always heal, that sucks, but at least it's something to point to at a party.

And obviously biographical publications don't always give the most accurate view of a person.

If anyone has read Sidney Bechet's autobiography 'Treat it Gentle' then you would think he was a saint, and as a title says, a gentle man. In reality Sidney Bechet had shot people in anger and jealousy more than once and had been in jail numerous times for beating up on women. He was a violent, violent man.

But one of the greatest musicians in American history.

So where do you separate the man from the art? I'm just saying don't pretend Mr. Sondheim's excrement smells like teen spirit just because you feel that his songwriting is superb.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 11:57pm

Eric, as you read more and more of these star biographies (and autobio's as well) you will find a Rashomon-like overlapping of details where there is a small area on which everyone agrees and the rest is all contradiction.

In Jan 1976 just before PACIFIC OVERTURES opened on Broadway the NY Times did an interview with Sondheim. What he said basically was that with A CHORUS LINE they workshopped it for several months, then did it off-Broadway and when they saw it was working, they moved it to Broadway and he questioned "where is the risk in that?" (Of course later with SUNDAY he learned that workshops and off-Broadway try-outs can be very useful.)

Those comments were subsequently twisted all out of proportion as if he was sneering at CHORUS LINE's success.

Remember too he came out of the R & H erea where shows played a few out-of-town try-outs then came to New York. Even in the 1970s that was still the only way he knew how to do a show.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 4/25/07 at 12:10am

Even that quote is a testament to his elitist attitude. It's as if it's not about how good the show is, but how you can play the game well enough to make the show a hit. Like art isn't even a part of it.

It kind of makes me shudder.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 4/25/07 at 12:11am

The Rashoman comparison is very apt. I DO find that from ALL I've read about Sondheim and from all the people I know who have met him, he comes across as a well spoken, nice and generous guy. *shrug*. That's not the overall view of Bennett I get although nearly everyone who knew him did seem to really value his role in their lives it seems.

That's interesting about Chorus Line--I guess Sondheims' comment was more directed at the reaction of all those at the time who praised Chorus Line as this *huge* risky show--although really some might say Pacific Overtures shoulda benefited from workshops, etc. (but I personally love it as it is--at least the OBCR video. It still seems odd to talk about PO and CHorus Lien and Chicago liek they were direct competition--if PO had been any other Sondheim 70s show the comparison would seem more apt, but with PO I really don't get, from reading any of Prince or Sondheim's comments that they ever expected it to have much of a run)
Updated On: 4/25/07 at 12:11 AM

[Julian2]

Posted: 4/25/07 at 12:26am

I wouldn't call the comment nessacary elitest. I personally see it more of a "Well where's the fun in that?" way. Kind of like if ancient olympic boxers saw what we call boxing today. "Gloves? Rules? Where is the risk in that?" I think we would need to hear him say the word to ACTUALY determine his meaning, instead of spinning ideas from a printed version of what he said. He could have meant it in any number of ways.

[Muhlethaler]

Posted: 4/25/07 at 2:31am

Updated On: 7/20/18 at 02:31 AM

[Unknown User]

Posted: 4/25/07 at 3:17am

yeah but the point of this thread wasn't to defend him--I had never heard those "quotes" before and wanted to hear the basis of some of them...

I think on here everyone has their fave composers--I got flamed in one thread recently for saying that i loved Styne but his scores were insanely inconsistant. I've defended Lord Andy a lot to a lot of unresonable hate...

[Dark_Angel]

Posted: 4/25/07 at 3:36am

I like Sondheim but I don't regard him as the second coming of Christ either as far as musical theater is concerned. He's an extremely gifted composer and when all is said and done a human being just like the rest of us with all the flaws and imperfections that go along with it.

As far as the people on this board flaming others for their like and/or dislike of a certain composer/show/performer what goes around usually comes around.
Updated On: 4/25/07 at 03:36 AM

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 4/25/07 at 5:05am

Fenchurch, you're not going to convince everyone to boycott Sondheim with your attempts at yellow journalism. I'm sorry if your friend of a friend of a friend's arm was broken, but seeing as how it has nothing to do with Sondheim's work in theatre, there's no point in whining ad nauseum about it on this board. May I suggest Datalounge if you continue to find yourself unable to discuss Sondheim in any professional context?

Updated On: 4/25/07 at 05:05 AM

[Pippin]

Posted: 4/25/07 at 11:35am

three weeks ago, Sondheim went all Tanya Harding on me and hired Oscar Hammerstein's ghost to bash my knee in.


It hurt.

[Kringas]

Posted: 4/25/07 at 11:47am

Posting on BWW is considered journalism now?

[C is for Company]

Posted: 4/25/07 at 12:37pm

Of the lowest kind, at least in most situations.

[Kringas]

Posted: 4/25/07 at 12:42pm

Awesome. That means I've made it!

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 4/25/07 at 1:17pm

That's why I said Fenchurch was "attempting" it, not achieving it.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 4/25/07 at 1:40pm

One of the burdens of celebrity is that the media, always hungry for backstage gaucherie, frequently mis-quote or change the contexts of the quotes. Then too, Sondheim (and others) as they have gotten older and perhaps a little mellower have become more guarded about what they say publicly about perceived competitors. Jerry Herman never intended his Tony speech to be taken as a slam against anyone but that’s what many read into it. (I was livid when he made that speech at the 1984 Tony’s!) But although never apologizing, he did clarify in his autobio what he meant. Sondheim and Prince were both known to shoot their mouths off..Maybe just to provide good copy?

Sondheim complained (See SONDHEIM & Co.) about the 1976 NY Times interview, which twisted everything he said, and as a result for many years thereafter he was reluctant to give interviews.

Sure he may have always longed for a big box office hit (who wouldn't) but in retrospect he sees his shows being done a lot so their initial financial outcomes matter less and less. It’s far worse when well-written pieces fail and fall into relative obscurity. The Sondheim shows are in no danger of that happening anytime soon.

Frankly, I am glad he has chosen to write the shows his way. Even BOUNCE (in Chicago at least) was far from being a disaster.

As for Fen church’s curious comment that Sondheim "owes" it to the Gay community to write gay-0themed shows, nonsense! That is like saying a black playwright r Chinese playwright can ONLY write about black or Chinese themes. Many Sondheim shows (ACW, COMANY, SWEENEY, SUNDAY) deal with characters outside the societal norm, and if you want a gay analogy look no further than Fosca’s obsession with Giorgio. (Am I the only one who sees a LOT of gay subtext in PASSION?)

[jv92]

Posted: 4/25/07 at 6:49pm

Let's not put Sondheim in the same league drug wise as Michael Bennett. In fact, let's not talk about anyone's drug use aside from this. It's unrelated to this thread.
Sondheim smoked a little pot. Sondheim tried acid. Sondheim (though I could be wrong) probably tried coke. That's absolutely nothing. He TRIED it. Everyone did. Ethel Merman probably tried drugs for christssakes!
Michael Bennett was a huge drug user, but not the type of pills Fosse took, at least to my knowledge. He was big with pot and cocaine. (There are very scary stories of how he was affraid the mob was after him durring his coke days)
Updated On: 4/25/07 at 06:49 PM

[jv92]

Posted: 4/25/07 at 6:51pm

Re: Jerry Herman's speech-
"But although never apologizing, he did clarify in his autobio what he meant."
I believe he did say something to Sondheim or at least it went throught the grapevine to Sondheim (through Laurents or Kander or someone who was friendly with both men) that it was not an attack on his work. Jerry Herman, in a radio interview around the time of La Cage's revival called Pacific Overtures "brilliant" and that's probably Sondheim's leastaccesible show. Mr. Herman is a Sondheim fan, to my knowledge.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 4/25/07 at 10:17pm

Good points--and personal biase factors in of course--I really am not a fan of Jerry Herman's work which I find formulaic and too simple--but to be honest nothing in it is personally appealing. Having seent he 84 speech I do see it as a bit of a slam on Sondheim's show even if he claims it wasn't meant to be--though I *don't* see it as a personal attack.

I agree this isn't the place to rbing up drug abuse--my point was that while the Seacrest bio of Sondheim mentions quite a bit of drug use while partying in the 60s and 70s (including cocaine) I agree with you JV--it wasw just that, doing some of it socially it was never a *problem* like it saidly became for Bennett or a barier between him and itneractions with his friends.

And as Mark pointed out if all gays involved in musicals did shows centering around gay themes (or even just a couple token shows each) we'd have a Hell of a lot more gay musicals out there. I do think Sondheim appears slightly reluctant to do so but that's his prerogative--and it has to be pointed out that aside from Passion and Sweeney (and Bounce?) Sondheim was always approached to do a show based on other people's subject matter. He obviously doesn't owe anything to his gay fans (though I knwo this gets into a whole more complex, thorny issue) though of course there are those who don't seem to think men should write plays based around women, straights about gays, etc

(I was just recently reading about the "attack" ongay playwrights like Williams, Inge, Albee in the 60s by many major critics, one I think in particular who wrote several pieces about the "sissification" of Americna theatre and how these fairies were tricking audiences into thinking they were watching something about straight couples when really it was code for gays. Like those ridiculous statements about Virginia Woolfe really being about two men--as if Albee, being gay, couldn't write something so personal about straight marriage).

Mark there's been a lot written in the Sondheim Review about gay identification and Passion (incluidng one kinda ridiculous article all centered around the Passion heart logo--the S and Backwards S someone symbolising anal penetration which was so absurb it completely lost me)

E

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 4/25/07 at 11:38pm

Orangeskittles, if you had really read any of my posts you would have known (because I made it very clear) that my comments are NOT to reflect on his work as a songwriter. I'm a Sondheim fan, a fan of his music. Just not a fan of the man himself.

Can you make the distinction? Because so far I don't think so.

Frontrowcentre: I did not mean that I think Sondheim should write gay-themed material. I mean I feel that he should out and more outspoken for gay civil rights. That's his shortcoming in my eyes, not the fact that Bobby is most probably a veiled, if straight(er) version of Sondheim himself, or anything else about his work.

[wickedfan]

Posted: 4/25/07 at 11:44pm

So, because he isn't the male Rosie O'Donnell, he's a bad person?

[jv92]

Posted: 4/26/07 at 3:54pm

"Good points--and personal biase factors in of course--I really am not a fan of Jerry Herman's work which I find formulaic and too simple--but to be honest nothing in it is personally appealing."

He's just as simple as John Kander, and I fathom you admire him, EricMontreal? (Do you? I don't want to make up your mind for you.) Simplicity is difficult to create.
Oh, and I don't find you'll find a choral piece from a musical more breathtaking and more difficult than "Mame."

Mr. Sondheim does not have to wave around gay pride flags and sing "I Am What I Am" all the time. He votes for the people who have nothing against gays. That's pretty damned good. Let's get off of that topic.

"my point was that while the Seacrest bio of Sondheim mentions quite a bit of drug use while partying in the 60s and 70s (including cocaine)"
Quite a bit? He tried acid, he smoked pot durring the intermission of (in my estimation) 2 opening nights and possibly a tad more than that and tried cocaine. Nancy Regan probably did more.


Updated On: 4/26/07 at 03:54 PM

[Unknown User]

Posted: 4/26/07 at 7:31pm

This is a silly point about SOndheim and drugs and I have no clue why I even brought it up--I read the bio a while back but I did get the impression that for a while it was a basic "party" habit when they'd go out. But that may be raised in my mind because after my mom read the bio (which I lent her)--and again this was some years back--she said something in passing like how it was kinda disturbing how much drugs they did (and my mom has no problem with pot) but that she guessed that would probably be common for the time and place (and you're right--it's nothing insane, I've probably "experimented" as much as him something I hope my mom never asks about :P )

As for Herman, Kander, etc... I dunno, I get a lot more out of my top Kander and Ebb scores although I by no means love everything they do (I rank pretty highly though Cabaret, Chicago, Zorba--maybe my fave underated musical of all--and Kiss of the Spider Woman a score I'm not sure I'd call simple). And you're right Herman has some pretty intricate harmonies etc (I've been in the chorus ofr both Mame and Dolly, as a teen, and enjoyed both but would never put either CD on...) I just don't care for Herman's music and maybe it's partly to do with the fact that his musicals themselves don't hold a lot of interest to me. Horses for courses I guess...

(this is so off topic to not be funny but I think part of it may be that as a teen, so of course I was misguided I was pretty big into Lloyd Webber, etc, and a family friend who loved the theatre HATED his shows, calling them repetitive, simplistic music wise, etc, but *adored* the "pure Broadway" of Herman. )

[jv92]

Posted: 5/28/07 at 9:26pm

Just read through this thread and it's a great deal of fun. Eric, I'd love to hear some of those stories about salty old Stritchy and Bennett at odds durring Company. I know that she really loved and respected him (Everytime she talks about him, she says what a terrible, premature loss his death was to the theatre world and what a brilliant person he was.) but I'd love to hear some stories.
And I'll add something else-
Apparantly, and I could be quite wrong, Michael Bennett was working on musicalizing some campy Ann Margaret movie from the 60s with Donna McKechnie in the lead post-Dreamgirls. Bob Fosse, I belive, suggested Gwen Verdon to Bennett and some sort of party or event he saw Bennett at. I don't know if that's the exact veichle, but I do know he suggested that Bennett give Verdon some sort of work. Odd how Bob would give his alter ego to someone else?

[Unknown User]

Posted: 5/29/07 at 3:42am

Stritch back in the early 70s was drinking and a mean drunk too keep in mind (the few stories from the glorious Everything Was Possible, even with Stritch as a small cameo attest to that and I'm sure she would admit as much)

I've not heard of that musical--but being the huge Webb fan I am I wish his score for Scandal would leak sometime--it sounds liek the musical Oh Calcutta shoulda been

E

[jv92]

Posted: 5/29/07 at 3:03pm

Ted Chapin, age 20: Hello Ms. Stritch. I'm Ted Chapin, Hal's production as...
Stritch: I don't give a F*CK who you are.

There's a wonderful story. Now I get what you mean.

I don't know if Bob wanted Michael Bennett to consider Gwen for Scandal. Frankly, I don't know what the hell Scandal is about.

Oh, and if we're talking about Chorus Line-
Just read the list of people who haven't submitted photos to Playbill for their yearbook. Note to John Breglio- Michael Bennett and Ed Kleban, two late Chorus Line creators, were on that list. You might want to send in photos.