Sondheim and Prince dissed Chorus Line?- Page 2

[jv92]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 3:38pm

And in defense of Sondheim, Prince, Mako, Pat Birch, Kander, Ebb, Fosse, Verdon, Rivera and all involved with Chicago and Pacific Overtures...
Michael Bennett and The Shuberts in a way bribed the Wing into giving Chorus Line 9 undeserved Tonys. In all honesty, it didn't deserve best score AT ALL. (Kander and Ebb AND Sondheim should have tied, though I have a feeling had Chorus Line not won, it would have been Kander and Ebb's award). It should not have won choreography (shoot me). Bob Fosse should have won choreography. Donna McKechnie is a wonderful, talented, sweet woman, but she should have been nominated in Featured Actress, not Leading Actress (Bennett's doing). I wouldn't be surprised if Bennett paid the wing to not give Jerry Orbach Best Actor.
Bennett, for all of his genius, was a paranoid, cruel, devious man. If anyone shut anyone out, it was him.

[Kringas]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 3:39pm

Well, actually, I can sort of see how it is relative to this discussion, since the implication of this thread seems to be that because Sondheim is Sondheim, he can't possibly have any negative characteristics.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 3:40pm

Wow, talk about real character assassination.
You mean just because Bennett was a nasty person, somehow he got people to give ACL awards it didn't deserve?

I find that hard to believe. If MB was so nasty, why would anyone want to do anything for him, much less risk their reputation by taking a bribe from him. Doesn't really make sense.

[ljay889]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 3:44pm

^ If you want heartfelt and completely honest stories that display MB'S persona..

read Donna McKechnie's autobio. Her bits on MB are heartbreaking. She flat out says he was not an easy person to get along with.

[SorryGrateful]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 3:45pm

"Well, actually, I can sort of see how it is relative to this discussion, since the implication of this thread seems to be that because Sondheim is Sondheim, he can't possibly have any negative characteristics."

If you're talking about the discussion Fenchurch and I are having, I don't care what Sondheim's negative characteristics are. (For Christ's sake, I love Woody Allen movies and look at what could be considered his moral ineptitude!) What I AM saying I believe I have said very clearly. I don't care if we're talking about Sondheim, Stephen Schwartz, or one of the dancing boys in The Pirate Queen. Have some respect for a person's private life. The end.

[Kringas]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 3:47pm

Why is okay to claim that Michael Bennett bribed the ATW(including that beautiful bit of conjecture regarding Jerry Orbach) and not that Sondheim likes kinky sex?

[Kringas]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 3:49pm

Kinky Sondheim

[ljay889]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 3:49pm

^ And his leather dungeon.

edit* you posted the link. Updated On: 4/24/07 at 03:49 PM

[SorryGrateful]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 3:49pm

If you carefully read my posts I'm not the one who said anything about Michael Bennett and his character. Try taking it up with the person who DID say that.

[jv92]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 3:49pm

If I were Donna McKechnie, I would have pushed him off the Empire State building after the way he treated her durring and after their marriage.
He did a lot of bribing and a lot of scheming. He tried to talk Tommy Tune into opening Nine in 1983 to give Dreamgirls a better shot at the Tonys.

[Kringas]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 3:49pm

All this rapid posting made this point irrelevant.

Updated On: 4/24/07 at 03:49 PM

[SorryGrateful]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 3:51pm

Posting on this thread is like trying to argue with a buttered roll.

[jv92]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 3:52pm

Double post. Read post underneath. Updated On: 4/24/07 at 03:52 PM

[jv92]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 3:52pm

I've gotten all of my little bits about Bennett from reliable sources. (Okay, the Jerry Orbach thing is assuming. But I think he may have.) I don't have to like everyone. I respect Bennett, but I think he wasn't the nicest person.

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 3:57pm

jv, I'm curious as to why you are so sure that Bennett bribed the Wing about the Tonys, especially for Jerry Orbach. Why would he care about Orbach? No one from ACL was nominated in his category, why would it matter to Bennett?

[jv92]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 3:58pm

Because he didn't want Chicago to win anything. Why would he make sure McKechnie, a featured player (as all in the show were) got leading actress?
Look, I have this thing with Chicago. Anyone who say the original production would get my opinion. It was a masterpiece and in all honesty, way better than A Chorus Line. Updated On: 4/24/07 at 03:58 PM

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 4:02pm

Any decent connoisseur should be able to separate the art and the personal lives of those involved. Leonardo da Vinci had a penchant for young boys, but that doesn't mean his work wasn't genius.

Updated On: 4/24/07 at 04:02 PM

[jv92]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 4:03pm

Was that in response to me? I said nothing about Bennett or Sondheim's personal life. I merely brought up Bennett's more hostile qualities in the business. Updated On: 4/24/07 at 04:03 PM

[BSoBW2]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 4:04pm

Don't you mean "wasn't genius"....to mean it WAS genius.

Double negatives are too confusing.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 4:06pm

Orangeskittles, that's another one of my points.

But according to some of the posts where people said they would like Sondheim even if he were a terrorist, it seems that this board has a dearth of "decent connoisseurs"

Posted: 4/24/07 at 4:11pm

OK for all you complainers I went back and cleaned up my (admittedly myriad of) typos. :P

I'm with the majority of people here--C is for Company, Ray, etc and that's prob why I hated reading what I did--yes I know all the Sondheim rumours and stories (many of which I believe aren't rumours) but overall I still see him as someone whose music I love so much but who also respect as a person. And yeah that's not necesarily important but allow me to at least have one idol :P

That said I do believe that in 1975 Steve very much coulda been jealous and even a bit spiteful of Chorus Line's success and I bet by the 80s he came around from that (in 1975 I think Steve was much more into the idea of still trying to have a real crowd pleaser too...). From the way Bennett acts--often, back then cuz he was seen as so young to others, out of defence--as said in the book I think it would have also been hard back then not to get a bit spiteful--he did seem to want to really make sure everyone was VERY aware of his success. Although all I've read seems to say his extreme paranoia (especially the "mafia is after me" coke fueled periods) came after Chorus Line's success--a few years at least. There's a good anecdote about him being generous to a fault with Ron Field when he knew Ron was gonna win the choreography tony for Cabaret over him and then during the Nine vs Dreamgirls fiasco him showing up at Ron's--who was apparantly dirt poor that year--after a binge and just screaming about what was gonna happen at the Tonys

I do still feel that Liz prob misquoted old Stevie by saying "why would you care about THESE people" (I assume the THESE is in reference to theatre people and not lower class but who knows).

Anyway I didn't mean for this to become quite as gossipy. No one wants to diss Elaine Stritch's lack of culture not knowing who Mahler was? :P

(for the record jv I don't think Chicago woulda won the Tony for best score--I haven't seen even *one* review of the show from the 70s that liked the score--everyone seemed to find it an over amplified unmemorable mess which is pretty inane but oh well)

[C is for Company]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 4:11pm

Oh please, and trying to dirty someone's name over this *hush hush* armbreaking incident isn't shady enough? Get it together.

[jv92]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 4:14pm

Old Man Barnes (well he wasn't so old then) didn't care for Hamlisch's music.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 4:16pm

Sorry BSo, I was still recovering from the mental image of a 77 year old man in assless leather chaps.

Fenchurch, if that's your point, then why did you post repeatedly to convince everyone that your personal (or friend of a friend of a friend's personal) experiences with Sondheim should overshadow their opinion of his work?

[C is for Company]

Posted: 4/24/07 at 4:16pm

Thanks Eric for shattering the saintly, artistic image of Stritch I've held onto all my life

And if anything, I'm sure that Merrily was the final wake-up call to Sondheim's hopes of being a commercial success if he hadn't already reached that conclusion years earlier.