Sweeney Todd Question *MAJOR MAJOR SPOILER*

[Mealz1042]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 9:29am

*SPOILER**SPOILER**SPOILER**SPOILER**SPOILER**SPOILER*

I was wondering if Mrs. Lovett knows the entire time that the begger woman is the wife, or if she just knows that she's alive but not that its neccesarily her.

just wondering. thanks.

[zooxanthellae]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 9:44am

Yes, she knows. Listen to the lyrics she sings right before he throws her in the oven!

MRS. LOVETT (Clutching the BEGGAR WOMAN 's wrists): No! Don't touch her!
TODD (Pushing her to the oven doors and leaning down to pick up the BEGGAR WOMAN) : What is the matter with you? It's only some meddling old beggar — (MRS. LOVETT opens the oven doors and the light from the fire illuminates the BEGGAR WOMAN 's face. A chord of music as TODD realizes who she is) Oh no, Oh God . . . "Don't I know you?" she said . . . (Looks up) You knew she lived. From the first moment that I walked into your shop you knew my Lucy lived!
MRS. LOVETT: I was only thinking of you!
TODD (Looking down again, sings):
Lucy. . .
MRS. LOVETT: Your Lucy! A crazy hag picking bones and rotten spuds out of alley ash-cans! Would you have wanted to know that was all that was left of her?
TODD (Slowly looking up): You lied to me.
MRS. LOVETT (Sings):
No, no, not lied at all.
No, I never lied.
TODD ( To the BEGGAR WOMAN):
Lucy...
MRS. LOVETT:
Said she bought the poison — she did —
Never said that she died —
Poor thing,
She lived —
TODD:
Lucy. . .
MRS. LOVETT:
Should've been in hospital,
Wound up in Bedlam instead,
Poor thing!
TODD:
Oh, my God . . .
MRS. LOVETT:
Better you should think she was dead.
Yes, I lied 'cos I love you!
TODD:
Lucy...
MRS. LOVETT:
I'd be twice the wife she was!
I love you!


It's the whole point. Mrs. Lovett is the true villain all along, its her fault everything happened the way it did.

[broadwaybound882]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 9:46am

I also remember in the Doyle revival at least there is a scene where Lovett goes as far to threaten the Beggar Woman in one scene.

[Mealz1042]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 10:14am

thank you, that's what i figured but i wasnt sure if maybe she realized it was her when she saw her come down the shoot, though it would explain why she wanted her to get away so badly during god thats good and just in general throughout the show.

I'm wondering if i would have caught on had i not seen the movie first, kind of wish i hadn't. (my school is currently doing a production, that's how this came about)

[puppetman2]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 10:40am

In the film she definitely does.

[Cearsgk]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 11:56am

I wonder why the judge and the beadle don't recognize the barber shop.

[SirNotAppearing]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 12:01pm

Wow, I never really thought of Lovett as the villain...interesting.

[zooxanthellae]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 12:11pm

Wow, I never really thought of Lovett as the villain...interesting.

Lovett is absolutely the most conniving and devious of all of them. She instigated and planned the whole thing for years. She would have what she wanted at all coasts. She may have even poisoned her own husband (speculation), to be with Barker. You can speculate all day about the possiblities, that's the beauty of her character. She is by far the most layered and interesting character (especially when played by Lansbury, who was nothing short of brilliant). And even though Lovett is so heinous and awful, and you as the viewer knows this, you can't help but feel bad for her when she is killed. Just as the audience has sympathy (maybe pity) for Sweeney.

Interestingly, If you look at the text, I believe she is technically the first to suggest cutting someone's throat too. And of course the Meat Pies are her idea!
But is there a layer of humanity behind her too? Of course, but she's also very terrible. She wouldn't hesitate to kill Toby because Todd says so, etc.
Updated On: 5/4/08 at 12:11 PM

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 12:28pm

I wouldn't say everything is Lovett's fault. Would Sweeney have been less vengeful if he had known Lucy were alive? She had still been raped, and she had still taken poison in an attempt to kill herself.

[Mealz1042]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 12:29pm

i think the that's the beauty of the sick and twisted plot. She did it all for love. And that's what makes this play brilliantly terrifying, you find yourself having sympathy for these people who are doing horrid things.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 12:32pm

She "did it all for love"? Doesn't that romanticize it just a little too much? Yes, she may love him, but what she is doing is also incredibly selfish. She says she wanted to protect him from the truth, and I think there is an element of that as well, but she does not want to share Sweeney's affections.

[KQuill]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 12:43pm

that truly is a MAJOR MAJOR SPOILER lol

thank you for being considerate.

Posted: 5/4/08 at 1:17pm

Yes, a "MAJOR SPOILER" for a plot twist that is 28 years old. I'd have to assume- if you've never seen or heard Sweeney Todd in the first 28 years of existance you probably arent burning to do so. If we were to discuss "Dorian Gray" would we have to say "SPOLIER" before mentioning he has a portrait hidden in the attic?

[postergirl]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 1:41pm

Damn you, damn you, JoeKv99!!!! He has a portrait in the attic????? Don't tell me it's a portrait of himself?!?!

[Mealz1042]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 2:32pm

LTE: it's incredibly selfish, i dont mean to say she's protecting him because she loves him i'm saying that it was her love and obsession for someone that drove her to that crazy point.

[H.Higgins]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 2:34pm

"I wonder why the judge and the beadle don't recognize the barber shop."

Thank you, Cearsgk!

That's always bothered me and no one ever mentions it. Benjamin Barker was the barber who worked in that SAME very shop...wouldn't Judge Turpin and/or the Beadle put two and two together between Sweeney's profession and the location?

[Mythus]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 4:53pm

But is there a layer of humanity behind her too? Of course, but she's also very terrible. She wouldn't hesitate to kill Toby because Todd says so, etc.

I have to disagree...I think it's so terrible because she would hesitate...but she would do it anyway. That's the layer of humanity. She knows what she's doing, thinks about it, and still goes through with it. I think that's even worse than what Sweeney does, being the mindless killer. Not that Sweeney is mindless, but you know what I mean.

[zooxanthellae]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 5:01pm

or on the same note, Lovett says that no one will go near the room above teh shop because they think it's haunted. Clearly they remember what happened to that barber that used to work there, why then would they begin to go to a barber that just happens to show up there, of all places?


You can, or course, find questionable things throughout the show. I mean most of the situations throughout it occur by chance and coincidence, and in real life would never have been so (why would they be singing?). It is, a fictionalized story (based on questionable events).

I think this is just an example of something the audience may or may not realize, but accepts for teh sake of the story. I mean who knows, maybe they genuinely forgot.

Another interesting point to make is, wouldn't someone have noticed earlier that men would go into the shop and never come home. Wouldn't they have told someone (their wives) that they were going for a shave, but then never return? Wouldn't more people have put it together and notified someone? And if people weren't returning how did word of mouth about Sweeney's tensorial parlor continue to spread? How did Sweeney continuously receive patrons, enough to fill countless meat pies?


EDIT:

I have to disagree...I think it's so terrible because she would hesitate...but she would do it anyway. That's the layer of humanity. She knows what she's doing, thinks about it, and still goes through with it. I think that's even worse than what Sweeney does, being the mindless killer. Not that Sweeney is mindless, but you know what I mean.

I understand what your saying, and I agree! But whether she hesitates or not, killing children (or anyone) is evil, regardless.


Sweeney is just as motivated as Lovett is; he's spent 15 years devising a way to garner his revenge, not only on Turpin, but on London. Which raises an interesting point: would he have killed the same way if Lucy was still alive and well? Would he have initially killed Lovett? Possibly, to me it seems that Sweeney was using her as well; I think he was very aware of her affections for him (regardless of Depp's interpretation) and took advantage of that to get what he wanted (just as he used Anthony and Johanna to get to the Judge). The problem with that was Lovett undermined him even more, by lying (Sweeney probably thought she wouldn't lie, because she did love him). Ultimately Lovett took the manipulation game to the next level. Neither of these character or their relationship with each other is one sided! That's just my feelings on it!






Updated On: 5/4/08 at 05:01 PM

[D2]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 5:09pm

Mrs. Lovett's dialogue, just before going into BY THE SEA, explains that:

"Since we're careful to pick and choose - only strangers and such like wot won't be missed - who's going to catch on?"

And we're even shown Sweeney actually shaving a man while his wife and children wait - that bit is both the stage and film versions, so it is made clear that they are careful who they kill.

Updated On: 5/4/08 at 05:09 PM

[fosca3]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 5:12pm

I don't think I can buy into her having planned it for years

He was transported for life -- she had no way of knowing he'd find a way back

(if I missed something, please tell me -- I've seen the show multiple times and have the Cast Recording pretty much memorized, I've listened to it so often. And the whole 'poisoned her husband thing' -- where does that come from? I'm very curious)

For me, the most interesting thing about Barker's character has always been that he made no attempt to see Joanna, even just to look at her from a distance. He showed no curiosity for what she looked like, how she had grown up, was she happy, anything at all. For him, the only thing that seemed to matter was the revenge. I've always wondered, if Lucy had been 'alive' (as in - he'd found her waiting when he came back) if things would have been any different. Did he want nothing but revenge from the very beginning, or only after Mrs Lovett led him to believe that Lucy was dead? If he had come back to Lucy and Joanna, and the chance to have a family again, was he at all capable of leading a normal life at that point?

[zooxanthellae]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 5:22pm

if I missed something, please tell me -- I've seen the show multiple times and have the Cast Recording pretty much memorized, I've listened to it so often. And the whole 'poisoned her husband thing' -- where does that come from? I'm very curious)

in the text Lovett says:
"It's not much of a chair, but it'll do till you get your fancy new one. It was me poor Albert's chair, it was. Sat in it alld ay long he did, after his leg give out from the dropsy."

So we know she had a husband.
If you read my post I said was only speculated and that she was certainly capable of doing it and would have for Barker, because she loved him. I'm not saying that's what actually happened. I didn't write the piece so I don't know... I'm just a devotee with too much free time to think about it.


EDIT:

He was transported for life -- she had no way of knowing he'd find a way back

She obviously hoped he would have. Why else would she have saved the razors?

Updated On: 5/4/08 at 05:22 PM

[LimelightMike]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 5:34pm

Re: "Turpin and Bamford not recognizing"

...Would *you* be able to recall someone and their profession some 15 (FIFTEEN) years of having been absent from your everyday life? I know I wouldn't! LoL

[zooxanthellae]

Posted: 5/4/08 at 5:40pm

Would *you* be able to recall someone and their profession some 15 (FIFTEEN) years of having been absent from your everyday life? I know I wouldn't!

Probably not, but if his daughter was my ward (who I wanted to marry and who was part of my everyday life) and who's wife I may have lusted for and subsequently tossed him out of the country for; I would most likely have remember.
Updated On: 5/4/08 at 05:40 PM

[KQuill]

Posted: 5/7/08 at 8:55pm

Yeah I agree with you JoeKv99 - I would even go so far as to say that there should be a statute of limitations on this. If you haven't seen Sweeney in it's first 28 years, you don't deserve the plot twist.

Are you LizzieCurry's father? Grandfather maybe? I don't know...west coast...needlessly cynical. Could be.

[Mealz1042]

Posted: 5/10/08 at 4:55pm

I mean, if we're getting technical here, I would be suprised that people wouldn't find it odd that this little pie shop which has been selling "the worst pies in london" suddenly became a booming business