The New Work Rules In Dispute In The Strike Talks- Page 3

[Gothampc]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 12:25pm

"Gotham: yes, that is how it works."

My point to Dolly was that for years that is how unions worked. They always grabbed much more than was necessary. Finally, producers started pushing back.

"For example at All Shook Up the producers won a much smaller band than was the minimum, and string parts were covered by synths. Is that what you want for your $125?"

Why don't you let the consumers decide what they want to pay for? If enough shows play to empty houses using synths, then producers will be forced to hire live musicians.

[don logan]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 12:34pm

In that case Gotham, why don't we just film the show once and show on a movie screen? That way the producers don't have to pay all those inflated actors salaries. Let the consumers decide what they want to pay for.

Updated On: 10/26/07 at 12:34 PM

[Gothampc]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 12:47pm

"In that case Gotham, why don't we just film the show once and show on a movie screen?"

That's quite a leap and bears no logic.

The fact is that badly produced shows will close. (Rosie O'Donnell and Taboo for example). If people don't go to shows because the music is canned, then producers will have to give the consumer what they want.

[don logan]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 12:53pm

Well Gotham, I just get angry when people say that unions are greedy. Have you ever been in a union negotiating with Broadway producers? I'm gonna assume that no, you haven't and that you probably don't belong to a union. In my experience, broadway producers are some of the greediest sob's you'll ever meet.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 1:22pm

"Well Gotham, I just get angry when people say that unions are greedy."

Unions are greedy. They charge you dues whether they find you work or not. They don't care about the creative process, they are just concerned with how much they can make in dues.

"In my experience, broadway producers are some of the greediest sob's you'll ever meet."

And yet, we've never seen a union put up the money for a show.

Producers are walking a very tight rope, many times with other people's money. They could gamble on a show and in a week's time lose millions. It's not always good to bite the hand that feeds you.

[claudia2]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 1:34pm

Gothampc: What do you do for a living. Are you involved in any aspect of broadway or theater? You are coming off sounding ignorant. The two sides should sit back down at the table and negotiate and each side should be open and give a little. The league reuses to negotiate in good faith. Their sole ambition isnt "break the unions." Thatis why they hired a corporate lawyer who knows nothing about the industry or the points in which he is negotiating.

[Fosse76]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 1:40pm

"Unions are greedy. They charge you dues whether they find you work or not. They don't care about the creative process, they are just concerned with how much they can make in dues."

And the producers are altruistic? You don't find it suspect that they have raised prices three years in a row, yet there were no salary increases each time these prices increased? The last two reductions the producers won (musicians and the equity tours) we saw absolutely no decrease in ticket prices; just the opposite. So to claim that wages are a legitimate justification for ticket prices is specious at best.

[don logan]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 1:46pm

I think Gotham is a stealth b'way producer in disguise. They're on this board, you know.

[roadmixer]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 1:53pm

Gothampc... I respect your right to have your own opinion but why so much vitriol in your responses? Have you been slighted by a union? Are you paying union members who you want to pay less? As to your comments...

"Unions are greedy. They charge you dues whether they find you work or not."

Unions charge dues to cover overhead just as producers claim overhead as one of their many expenses. Without dues there would be no union office, no union officers, supplies etc... no union in other words. Dues are set by the membership through a free vote so it is a self-tax. I guess you're saying that we, as members of a union, are greedy? The union is always trying to find work for its members but it is not the employer. Whether work is available or not is not controlled by the union.

"They don't care about the creative process, they are just concerned with how much they can make in dues."

This is more inflammatory rhetoric coming from someone like yourself who obviously dislikes unions. Of course the union (and its members) cares very much for the craft. We have been doing it for 121 years in NYC and want that to continue. The health of the business depends on whether the shows are good or not and we do our part to make sure that the public gets to see the best possible product.

"And yet, we've never seen a union put up the money for a show."

I'm glad that my union is not putting its investments in something as risky as a Broadway show.

"Producers are walking a very tight rope, many times with other people's money."

As you yourself said to me... "Welcome to the real world". Producers know what they are getting in to when they invest. If they don't they shouldn't be in the business. The other people that you want me to feel sorry for also know that Broadway is highly risky - not due to the high costs alone either - mostly due to the fact that many shows are just not that good. Those same 'other people' will write off their losses against their massive incomes and be just fine.

"They could gamble on a show and in a week's time lose millions."

Just like being at the craps table... yes. Would you suggest that you ask the dealers, attendant and pit bosses to all take a pay cut since you might lose?

"It's not always good to bite the hand that feeds you."

Nobody wants to bite the League's hand. We simply want to be treated fairly. If the League would ask those of us who have been doing this for years how to save money on these shows and to make things run more smoothly we would tell them. We are all in this together and it is in nobody's best interest to see shows fail and to see costs or work rules get in the way of the success of this industry.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 2:05pm

"And the producers are altruistic?"

No, they are out to make a profit. But once again, have you ever seen a union put up the money to produce a show?

"The last two reductions the producers won..."

Shows like "The Who's Tommy" and "A Chorus Line (Original)" had to pay out millions to walkers. The producers are now disgusted with this and decided to play the game their way. If someone has ripped you off for years, why would you want to trust them?

I think all of this will be put to the test next summer when Godspell rolls in. Godspell doesn't need a 25 piece orchestra. Godspell should have been revived long before now. Now that producers have more control over personnel, perhaps we can see the more intimate shows return to Broadway.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 2:39pm

Some of you need to realize that not every seat in a theater is going for $125 every night. Sure a good show on a Saturday night can pull in $125 at full capacity, but on a Tuesday night, a producer has to offer discounts to tour groups and TDF to get people into the theater. And of course, if they don't sell a seat by 8pm that is lost income to them.

"We are all in this together and it is in nobody's best interest to see shows fail and to see costs or work rules get in the way of the success of this industry."

roadmixer, please see my last post. When you can explain the behavior of unions regarding shows like "A Chorus Line" and "Tommy" then you may have a point. In those instances, the unions had their own interests in mind and nobody else. For all of you who have a hateful attitude toward producers, just look at what the unions did historically. There is another side to the story.

[One NYC StageHand]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 2:47pm

And yet, we've never seen a union put up the money for a show.
Never let a good opinion get in the way of the facts.

First there's "Pins and Needles" 1937
http://www.ibdb.com/production.asp?ID=1066

On going labor oriented theatre is produced at

The Working Theatre
http://www.theworkingtheater.org/home.html

And The Bread and Roses Project.
http://www.bread-and-roses.com/

As well as the Labor Arts Project
http://www.laborarts.org/

And the NYC Labor Chorus.
http://www.nyclc.org/index.shtml

[roadmixer]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 2:49pm

Gothampc - Nobody disputes that there might be some historical cases of so-called featherbedding. If Tommy were produced today it would have the number of players in the pit called for in the orchestration. Same for A Chorus Line. Let's try to keep to the facts of THIS dispute. Let's deal with the here and now. For the record, I personally do not 'hate' producers. Some of them are my friends, all of them are my colleagues. If they treat me as a skilled, intelligent partner in their productions I am in their court. If, on the other hand, I am treated as a cog in their gold-plated wheel who would be outsourced if they could do it, I am not happy.

[MaronaDavies]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 2:50pm

The original ACL closed 17 years ago. What happened there is irrelevant. Also, in relation to the house minimums, actors who play instruments in the show count toward the house minimum. If you have an actor crash a cymbal together once or pick out four notes on a piano onstage, that counts toward the house minimum. AFM also allows for special exceptions.

You know, every profession has positives and negatives. Nobody in this world is completely selfless. The fact remains, though, that unions exist for a reason. Broadway didn't start out with them. There's a reason every single profession on Broadway, from the actors to the cleaning staff, is under union protection. If the producers could be trusted to treat their employees in a humane way and offer them fair wages, benefits and working conditions, unions wouldn't be necessary.

Not to mention that when people are talking about unions as some big bad entity--it's not. It's simply the employees organizing. In any job, if you want to bargain or advocate for a change, you might get your colleagues together to back you up and present a united front. Strength in numbers and all.

[Fosse76]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 3:00pm

"'And the producers are altruistic?'

No, they are out to make a profit. But once again, have you ever seen a union put up the money to produce a show?"

Why should they? I don't give my employer money.

"'The last two reductions the producers won...'

Shows like "The Who's Tommy" and "A Chorus Line (Original)" had to pay out millions to walkers. The producers are now disgusted with this and decided to play the game their way. If someone has ripped you off for years, why would you want to trust them?"

This is 2007. Citing shows over 20 years old is not exactly helping your cause. I bet your longing for the nineteenth century when the U.S. had slavery.

"I think all of this will be put to the test next summer when Godspell rolls in. Godspell doesn't need a 25 piece orchestra. Godspell should have been revived long before now. Now that producers have more control over personnel, perhaps we can see the more intimate shows return to Broadway."

It doesn't matter how many people are in the orchestra. I don't believe there is a public outcry for a revival of Godspell. If it flops, it won't be bacuase of the stagehands or musicians, yet I'll bet you'll be here complaining it was their fault.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 3:04pm

"Let's try to keep to the facts of THIS dispute. Let's deal with the here and now."

"The original ACL closed 17 years ago. What happened there is irrelevant."

I worked with Kim Hunter once. She told me that the day before "Steetcar" opened she had to rehearse all night long. The day of opening night, she went home, got about 2 hours sleep and then had to give her opening night performance.

I'm sure all of you would say "Thank goodness things have changed and history won't repeat itself".

I'm trying to put THIS dispute into a historical context. Those of you bashing the producers have to realize that over the years unions did a power grab. There is bad blood on both sides and both sides will enter this meeting with the baggage of the past. I'm not saying producers are squeaky clean, but the unions also have a long history of milking a situation for all it's worth.

[One NYC StageHand]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 3:05pm

They used to tell me I was building a dream
And so I followed the mob.
When there was earth to plow or guns to bear,
I was always there, right there on the job.
They used to tell me I was building a dream
With peace and glory ahead --
Why should I be standing in line, just waiting for bread?
Once I built a railroad, made it run,
Made it race against time.
Once I built a railroad, now it's done –
Brother, can you spare a dime???
Once I built a tower, to the sun
brick and rivet and lime.?
Once I built a tower, now it's done --
Brother, can you spare a dime?
Once in khaki suits, gee, we looked swell
Full of that Yankee Doodle-de-dum.
Half a million boots went slogging through hell,
I was the kid with the drum?
Say, don't you remember they called me Al,
It was Al all the time.
Say don't you remember, I'm your pal --
Buddy, can you spare a dime?

Music by Jay Gorney
Words by E.Y.Harburg (1932)

[roadmixer]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 3:06pm

Gothampc - What meeting will they be entering? Is there one planned? Last I heard, the League walked out of the meeting and didn't come back...

[Gothampc]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 3:11pm

roadmixer, you know there will be another meeting(s). Walking out is now required. It's protocol. It's completely for the press. Keep watching. In a few days, the head of Local 1 will give a big television speech (ala an 11:00 number) and they will be back to negotiating.

[One NYC StageHand]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 3:16pm

"Sing Me a Song with Social Significance"

by Harold Rome (1937)

This song is from the 1937 hit musical revue, "Pins and Needles," performed by rank and file members of the ILGWU (International Ladies Garment Workers Union); "Pins and Needles" was Broadway's longest-running show until "Oklahoma."

I'm tired of moon songs, of star and of June songs,
They simply make me nap.
And ditties romantic drive me nearly frantic,
I think they're all full of pap.
History's making, nations are quaking,
Why sing of stars above?
For while we are waiting, father time's creating
New things to be singing of...

Sing me a song with social significance,
All other tunes are taboo.
I want a ditty with heat in it,
Appealing with feeling and meat in it.
Sing me a song with social significance,
Or you can sing till you're blue,
Let meaning shine from every line
Or I won't love you.

Sing me of wars, sing me of breadlines,
Tell me of front page news,
Sing me of strikes and last minute headlines,
Dress your observations in syncopation.

Sing me a song with social significance,
There's nothing else that will do.
It must get hot with what is what
Or I won't love you.

Sing me a song with social significance,
All other tunes are taboo,
I want a song that's satirical,
And putting the mere into miracle.
Sing me a song with social significance,
Or you can sing till you're blue,
It must be packed with social fact
Or I won't love you.

Sing me of crime and conferences martial,
Tell me of mills and of mines,
Sing me of courts that aren't impartial,
What's to be done with 'em? Tell me in rhythm.

Sing me a song with social significance,
There's nothing else that will do.
It must be dense with common sense
Or I won't love you.

[roadmixer]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 3:20pm

Gothampc - I fear that your oracles are letting you down. It is highly unlikely that the union is going to suddenly do anything which will bring the League back to the table. They have tried already. Since the League has issued a take-it-or-leave-it offer it will be up to them to be making conciliatory speeches in the media inviting the union to start negotiating again. I look forward to watching Ms. St. Martin when that day comes but I am worried that she may send the audience home unhappy as well (a reference to your eleven o'clock number). I will keep watching and I will keep hoping that this is resolved in a satisfactory manner. Nobody wants to take this to the next level.

[JustAGuy]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 4:01pm

"I'm trying to put THIS dispute into a historical context. Those of you bashing the producers have to realize that over the years unions did a power grab. There is bad blood on both sides and both sides will enter this meeting with the baggage of the past. I'm not saying producers are squeaky clean, but the unions also have a long history of milking a situation for all it's worth."

You're putting nothing in context if all you're doing is bashing the unions for what you feel is less than stellar behavior, without doing the same to the producers, and vice-versa. Putting something into context is looking at the whole picture. Not a biased one sided view.

Updated On: 10/26/07 at 04:01 PM

[Gothampc]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 5:00pm

"You're putting nothing in context if all you're doing is bashing the unions for what you feel is less than stellar behavior, without doing the same to the producers, and vice-versa."

Since the majority of posts here are anti-producer, I think that what I've said adds value for those who may be reading but haven't formed an opinion.

[roadmixer]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 5:46pm

Gothampc - Actually, if you would care to re-read these posts, while they might be skewed in favor of the union the majority are not in any way 'bashing' the producers. Semantics but an important delineation. My posts for example are all rebuttals to posts by people like you who seem bent on pointing out the faults of the union. I too consider myself to be providing context

[don logan]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 11:59pm

I'll bash the producers. I'll do it all day. Personally all the producers I've met are fine people, but when you get to the negotiating table they are rutheless thieves.