The definition of a "flop"
The definition of a "flop"
tfelice
Swing Joined: 6/14/05
#0The definition of a "flop"
Posted: 6/14/05 at 6:33pm
Exactly what would define a show as being a flop. If a show lasts less that a year would that basically be the qualifier or is there something else?
Thanks for the input
#1re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/14/05 at 6:38pmA flop is technically anything that has a loss when it closes -- it seems almost EVERYTHING is a flop then, as few shows tend to recoup.
MargoChanning
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/5/04
#2re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/14/05 at 6:41pm
The official definition of a "flop" is any commercial production which fails to recoup its initial investment, regardless of how long it runs. Some limited engagements have been known to recoup within two or three months and are considered "hits" and some shows which ran three or four years are still technically considered "flops" because they never paid back their investors.
It is NOT in any way a judgment on the artistic merits of the show -- it is purely a financial assessment of how a show did at the box office. If it didn't turn a profit, then it's a "flop."
Mind you some of the greatest shows ever written have been flops -- most Sondheim shows, Porgy and Bess, the original Pal Joey et al. You can certainly be a respected, award-winning artistic success and still be a "flop" at the box office.
#3re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/14/05 at 6:43pmThink of "Ishtar" in the theatre world.
Mr Roxy
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/17/03
#4re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/14/05 at 6:51pm
Basically something that closes quickly & loses all or most (or more) of its investment
The original Follies , which ran for about a year, was considered a flop as it did not make its investment back ( which is what can be said of most Sondheim shows)
#5re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/14/05 at 6:54pm
Sad shame about Sondheim. Of all the wonderful shows in which he wrote both the music and lyrics only four were financial successes (A FUNNY THING HAPPEND ON THE WAY TO THE FORUM, COMPANY, A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC and INTO THE WOODS) and he doesn't have a single show to his credit that has run 1,000 performances. Not even WEST SIDE STORY, GYPSY, or DO I HEAR A WALTZ?, in which he just wrote the lyrics. Pity.
MargoChanning
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/5/04
#6re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/14/05 at 7:00pmI think that Sondheim's track record is much more a reflection of the shortcomings of theatregoers than any deficiencies in his work. But, don't cry for him. He's a very wealthy man (with 8 Tonys and a Pulitzer) and his shows (including all of the flops) are produced thousands of times a year by professional, amateur, college and high school groups around the country and around the world.
#7re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/14/05 at 7:25pmMargo, I am in awe everytime you post.
bdwybelle
Broadway Star Joined: 11/2/04
#8re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/14/05 at 7:35pmAny show that has a poster on Joe Allen's walls is a flop.
nmartin
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/3/05
#9re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/14/05 at 7:41pm
Get a copy of Ken Mandlebaum's book Not Since Carrie. It has more information about what a flop is, what causes flops, and what the biggest flops in Broadway history are than any thread could cover. It's also a really great read.
Updated On: 6/14/05 at 07:41 PM
#10re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/14/05 at 7:47pm
That book is a fantastic read, nmartin! It surprised me that some of the musicals he covered in that book actually got going, much less opened!
I am always surprised what is considered a flop and a hit. It's rather sad that a musical running for 3-4 years on Broadway can never expect to make any profit and be considered a flop.
i*heart*fame
Broadway Star Joined: 9/15/04
#11re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/14/05 at 7:58pmAlan Eisenberg came to my school last year and he said that only about 10% of shows are hits, meaning only 10% recoup their investment.
tfelice
Swing Joined: 6/14/05
#12re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/14/05 at 9:09pm
"Alan Eisenberg came to my school last year and he said that only about 10% of shows are hits, meaning only 10% recoup their investment."
If that be the case then someone seriously has to rework the business plan. Unless of course the 10% that do profit do so at such a level to offset the loss of the other 90%.
#13re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/15/05 at 6:44amDon't forget, that despite being the shortest-running Best Musical of all time, PASSION also made its investment back...
rockfenris2005
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/10/04
#14re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/15/05 at 6:52am
I always thought a FLOP was the dreadful stuff like:
Kelly
Dude
Via Galactica
Carrie the Musical
Legs Diamond
Metropolis
Baby
Capeman
Jeeves
Dance of the Vampires
etc etc. etc.'
#15re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/15/05 at 8:00am
You think that Baby is dreadful?
It certainly wasn't a great success, but it's a great show with a wonderful score.
jasobres
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/9/05
#16re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/15/05 at 8:51am
Hmmm, lemme check my dictionary...
"Flop, see Good Vibrations"
cathyhyatt
Broadway Star Joined: 10/20/04
#17re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/15/05 at 11:25amI would NEVER say Dance of the Vampires was even close to 'DREADFUL'.
ItSucks2BAveQ
Stand-by Joined: 6/14/04
#18re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/15/05 at 11:27am
good vibrations
bad. bad. BAD. BADDDD!!! vibrations
#19re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/15/05 at 11:31amI loved Legs Daimond, Baby and Dance of the Vampires!
#20re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/15/05 at 11:38amMargo - I love how you added the disclaimer this time. You might want to try it in bold and all caps so there's no confusion. Hee.
#22re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/15/05 at 1:21pmGreat definition of a "flop"--it has nothing to do with merit, but money. I love the point about the shortcomings of theatergoers. "Entertainment" need not always be of the LCD..."Mamma Mia" is fun, but hardly art. And that's NOT a put-down, because it doesn't want to be anything more than that. I struggle with this all the time with my students, trying to help them to understand how rich a more difficult work might be...Sondheim seems to me to combine both art and entertainment, as most of the great writers have. There is a depth and texture to the work which makes repeated viewings revelatory and worthwhile.
#23re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/26/05 at 6:29am
Was Lil Shop a flop?
I think had the cast from the FLA tryouts went to bway it would have lasted longer.
the cast they used sounded like high school students.
#24re: The definition of a 'flop'
Posted: 6/26/05 at 8:45amI was actually gonna pose the same question today. LOL You beat me to it.
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