Theater 101, Question. I need help, lol

[Braniff Forever]

Posted: 7/9/15 at 4:09pm

Ok, nobody flame me, but I have a question about musical theater. Now remember, I only became interested in theater in January this year, so everything I've learned so far has been from either seeing live theater on Broadway or studying articles and postings about theater in the message boards. Ok my question (s) is as follows:

Ok, I just bought the Original Broadway cast recording to THE VISIT. When I listen to the songs I hear spoken words then to me what sounds like a song that is accompanied by music. So, does the person who writes the "book" write the words up to where I would hear the "lyric" being sung to music that is accompanied by by music written by the composer? Or is each "song" on the Original Broadway cast recording written by the person who writes the lyric? I guess my question is where does the "book" writer stop and the "lyric" writer start? I'm asking this question because if I want to write my own musical about part of my life, where does the spoken word (book writer) stop and the sung lyric (writer) begin? And is the difference between a play and a musical just the concept that in a musical you hear songs sung which otherwise might be monologues in a play? Thanks for educating me, I need it!!!

[alliesinger]

Posted: 7/9/15 at 4:14pm

Hi, Braniff! Other people might have different thoughts on this, but in my reading, I've found that this can really vary. Some of the great creative teams throughout history worked so closely together that the lines between book and lyric blurred, whiles others stayed rather far apart. 

I also want to say that anyone who "flames" you on this board is ridiculous. Good on you for asking a question and trying to learn more about theatre!

[Gothampc]

Posted: 7/9/15 at 4:19pm

Different shows have different processes.

Often, a book writer writes the script and then a lyricist and composer insert the songs where they are appropriate.

However, sometimes a book writer will also write the lyrics and so it may be a more integrated process.

Sometimes you can really tell that the songs were shoe horned in.  I've always liked Big River, but to me it sounds like they took a mega crowbar and shoved the songs in even though they don't always make sense in their place.

And sometimes you can tell they're just putting stuff in regardless of character.  For example, in the musical "The Life" the leading lady sings a song about "he's no good, but I'm no good without him".  Then five minutes later she sings a song "I'm leaving you".  I guess they had two songs they thought were too good to cut and just shoehorned them into the show.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 7/9/15 at 4:23pm

"And is the difference between a play and a musical just the concept that in a musical you hear songs sung which otherwise might be monologues in a play?"

One of the best things you can learn about a musical is why people sing.  It's not just that it's a monologue.  People sing in musicals because they have run out of words and need a higher form of expression for what they are saying.

[Braniff Forever]

Posted: 7/9/15 at 4:25pm

Thanks Allie and Gotham....my background is screenwriting where I would write dialogue and scene descriptions and that's it. So the whole idea of a musical is new to me because there seem to be three functions in the constructing of a musical. So I'm just trying to wrap my head around how to create a musical. So, I believe I could write the lyrics and book but would need a composer to create the music since I can't play a musical instrument, lol. 

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 7/9/15 at 4:25pm

Good point Goth

[HogansHero]

Posted: 7/9/15 at 4:30pm

It does indeed vary depending on the people involved. There are examples (and Ebb is one) of lyricists who are really the driving force in storytelling, and I would not at all be surprised if such people wrote more dialogue than most people would imagine, not just in songs but around them as well. (There may be books or articles addressing this specifically if you poke around.) There are also, of course, bookwriters who are responsible for most of the storytelling, and may even kibbitz (sp?) on lyrics. And there are even composers who do a great deal beyond what they get credit for. So the answer to your not-at-all ridiculous question is that there really is no single answer.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 7/9/15 at 4:30pm

Many, many musicals were first plays.  You may want to take some time and study and see if you can first read the source material and then read the musical to see how a musical springs from source material.

Off the top of my head:

Oklahoma

Carousel

Fiddler on the Roof

Hello Dolly

Mame

All had previous source material before they were turned into musicals.

 

Also you can watch movies "Hairspray" and "Little Shop of Horrors" to see how a movie was turned into a musical.

Updated On: 7/9/15 at 04:30 PM

[dramamama611]

Posted: 7/9/15 at 5:02pm

" People sing in musicals because they have run out of words and need a higher form of expression for what they are saying."

 

I'll just piggyback on Gothampc's answer:  When mere words are no longer "enough", a character breaks into song, when singing is no longer "enough", the character breaks into dance.  With that explanation, you can see an very interesting hierarchy.  (Not that everyone will agree, of course.)

 

Another interesting choice to watch between the two:  Legally Blonde.  (You can watch the entire stage show on line, as MTV aired it.)  Its not a great musical, but the songs insertion is pretty great.  I find it hard to watch the original movie and not be able to see exactly where each song comes in.

[karen24]

Posted: 7/9/15 at 5:40pm

I think that's a very good question and not ridiculous at all Something I've often wondered myself, as a matter of fact, and I've loved musicals for a long time!

Another play/musical evolution you might look at is Pygmalion/My Fair Lady. I've always been fascinated by how closely Lerner and Loewe were able to follow Shaw's play. Oh, and The Taming of the Shrew/Kiss Me Kate, too. I just saw Taming of the Shrew at Stratford and noticed that many lines went right into Cole Porter's musical.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/9/15 at 9:01pm

I agree there is nothing ridiculous about the question. Even experienced pros are still trying to figure it out. And the answer you got, that there are as many variations as there are writing teams, is absolutely correct.

But to illustrate dramamama's paragraph on the elements of a musical and the intensity of the dramatic moment, see the "Shall We Dance" scene from THE KING AND I. (The film version will do: it's an excellent replication of the scene.)

First the King and Anna talk. Then, as their temperatures rise, the king begins to talk in rhymed verse. Then, as the romantic subtext intensifies, they sing. And finally, they dance. It's done so beautifully it's one of the great dances in musical theater history, even though it's just a simple polka.

See, also, Jerome Robbins' work on "America" in WEST SIDE STORY. It's another scene where you can see the dramatic conflict rise until characters sing and then dance.

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 7/9/15 at 9:14pm

The book writer can also have a significant influence on the lyrics to a show. For both Sunday in the Park with George and Into the Woods, Sondheim has mentioned how a number of songs came from Lapine writing monologues for the characters, which Sondheim then transformed into a song form.

[EchoParker]

Posted: 7/10/15 at 8:31am

"Ok, nobody flame me, but I have a question about musical theater. Now remember, I only became interested in theater in January this year, so everything I've learned so far has been from either seeing live theater on Broadway or studying articles and postings about theater in the message boards. Ok my question (s) is as follows:
Ok, I just bought the Original Broadway cast recording to THE VISIT. When I listen to the songs I hear spoken words then to me what sounds like a song that is accompanied by music. So, does the person who writes the "book" write the words up to where I would hear the "lyric" being sung to music that is accompanied by by music written by the composer? Or is each "song" on the Original Broadway cast recording written by the person who writes the lyric? I guess my question is where does the "book" writer stop and the "lyric" writer start?"

A great question. I see a lot of people have already given you very helpful answers about the process of *actually* writing "book" and lyrics. I'll start by seconding what's already been said: if you imagine you and a friend are collaborating on writing a musical: she's writing the music and lyrics and you're writing the "book". You can certainly see how something you've written as a line of dialogue might end up as a lyric she would use, or how she might come up with some dialogue leading into a song. That's a very natural thing that might happen.

But *technically* (or, to put it another way "officially") the dialogue that's spoken is the work of the book writer, and the words being sung are the work of the lyricist.

Listening to a cast album is probably the easiest way to get confused by this distinction. You kind of expect, if you're listening to a track on a cd, that you'll be listening to a "song". But the producers of the album (which sometimes will include the writers themselves) will sometimes decide to include on the album some dialogue leading into a song. Or sometimes there's dialogue in the middle of a song, and that might be part of the recording.

And what makes it even more potentially confusing is that, in an effort to move seamlessly from dialogue to lyric, the writers will often have the musical lead-in to a song begin "under" the dialogue. So dialogue is being spoken, but there's music playing. And, of course, sometimes actors *speak* lyrics, rather than singing them.

But to help you out on what I believe is a part of your question: there is a very clear distinction, in the writing of a musical, about what is "dialogue" (the work of the book writer) and what are lyrics. Again, collaborators will sometimes, inevitably, contribute to the parts of the show that aren't officially theirs.

At some point, perhaps, you'll get a hold of the published libretto (that's script and lyrics) of a musical. Looking at it in print, the distinction between dialogue and lyrics will be much clearer than it is when you're listening to a cd.