Thoroughly Modern Millie -- Casting Non-Asians- Page 2

[Patash]

Posted: 8/8/08 at 6:42pm

deck, do you really not get the idea that in Millie, Mrs. Meers is SUPPOSED to be a Caucasian who dresses (disguises) herself as Chinese. If the two guys are also Caucasians disguising themselves as Chinese -- it sort of defeats the entire point of that contrast.
Accepting an entire cast or half a cast as being actors pretending to be a different race is easier and less problematic than having the audience understand that one white character is supposed to be white but pretending to be Chinese and NOT think that the two guys with her who are also white and are also clearly pretending to be Chinese, really aren't supposed to be pretending -- they really are Chinese. How do you make the audience "get" the difference? If the audience accepts the two guys as being Chinese, why wouldn't they also assume that Mrs. Meers really is Chinese too? Get it?

[Magica]

Posted: 8/8/08 at 6:53pm

here's hoping for an all caucasian high school production of the color purple! "helllll no!!!"

[eatlasagna]

Posted: 8/8/08 at 7:40pm

it's great there have been successes of white actor playing the chinese characters in TMM, but you're still marginalizing a group of actors who almost never get cast in roles because of their skin color.... this topic is very sensitive to me... so yeah i'm Filipino and i'm sensitive about this topic... i auditioned for a play about a Chinese American family and i did not get cast... when I went and saw the production, sans one cast member, the entire cast was white! i was more offended when the director wrote a note in the playbill saying something to the effect of this story is one that crosses all ethnicities and i'm so proud to have this story told with a non-Asian cast... i mean that was TRULY insulting! granted I may not have been right for the role but why even do a play if you know you're not going to get the cast for it... what this director ended up doing is insulting me as a Filipino and Asian person... and i honestly think it's sad that we're still at that point where minorities can be cast in predominately white roles with their casting causing an uproar yet a white person does a show meant for minorities and it not be a big deal!

[oohshizz146]

Posted: 8/8/08 at 8:20pm

My production (which was just students) had two Caucasians as Bun Foo and Ching Ho and it just made it funnier. They had extra work to do to nail the accent but it worked fine, they just wore wigs and used special make up,

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 8/8/08 at 8:25pm

What I don't get is why they even bothered to put Mrs. Meers in Asian drag. I saw the show in La Jolla and Meers was just mean and crazy, not trying hard to be Asian. Or whatever.

[LuvUrBatBoy]

Posted: 8/8/08 at 8:39pm

Well Patash, I just played Ching Ho in a very well reviewed, very well received production and Im about as pale, blond and practically Aryan as one can get. We also cast a girl (also caucasian) as Bun Foo. As long as the actors playing the roles adhere to the dialect, and lines as written and play the characters as genuine, the contrast to Mrs. Meers' parody is just as affective. In answer to your question, the audience will go along with you as long you sell it properly.

And to be honest, it's not called Thoroughly Modern Chinese people. It's Millie's story...everyone else is just there to help her tell it.

[Mattbrain]

Posted: 8/8/08 at 9:06pm

I know a theatre in Norwell that's doing the show right now and they didn't cast Asians as Bun Foo and Ching Ho.

[sidwich]

Posted: 8/8/08 at 9:32pm

I really don't think this is a good idea. Ching Ho and Bun Foo are clearly written as Chinese-Americans. I can only imagine the uproar if there was a question of casting a character that was clearly written as African-American such as Trevor Graydon's African American manservant (if there were one). People would be appalled if there were suggestions to make up a Caucasian actor in blackface and have him adopt an "African-American" accent. I still cringe everytime I see Mickey Rooney as the landlord in "Breakfast at Tiffany's."

I think part of the problem is that pieces that TMM are playing on the stereotypes that were exploited by Hollywood for so many years. It's one thing to include Asian-Americans on the joke, but when you start having white actors playing these characters, I do think it becomes very uncomfortable.

[eatlasagna]

Posted: 8/8/08 at 10:32pm

i'm just saying... the more common it becomes the more accepted it becomes and it's pretty sad... what are we teaching our kids if it's ok for us to marginalize minorities... are we telling them that it's ok for white people to portray other minorities but it's not ok for minorities to portray white people??? it's one of the reasons i hate community theater productions of the KING AND I... it literally offends me... it's just an excuse for white people to be cast in something they really want to do... but it is what it is i guess... that's why i'm thankful for places such as the East West Players in Los Angeles that gives Asians the opportunity to portray roles commonly cast by white people... and i'm thankful for people like Cameron Macintosh and the casting people who cast African Americans, Asians, and Latinos in Les Miserables... at least there is some change... but it ain't going to get better if the attitudes by a majority are still the same

[Patash]

Posted: 8/8/08 at 10:41pm

eatlasagna, now you've confused me. If I'm reading your post right, you seem to be saying it's GREAT for minorities to play white people, but it's not OK for white people to play minorities. I guess I don't get why that is true. Of course I'm not talking about roles that minorities play that are just "people" and what race the character is makes no difference -- but where a character clearly by history or by story or by relationship with other characters IS white. I saw a bizarre production of West Side Story at Stratford, Ontario with an Asian Maria. Somehow it just didn't make sense in a play that is totally about Puerto Ricans and Americans.

[Urban]

Posted: 8/8/08 at 10:43pm

Funnily enough I was actually speaking to an aquaintence (who happens to be of Asian heritage) last night who is deeply into Musical Theatre and he mentioned earlier this year he was in a local production of "Thouroughly Modern Millie" and the first words out of my mouth where 'did you play Jimmy Smith' (the guy does scream leading man and also in my minds eye, I automatically saw him as Jimmy - he just gave me that precense).

He though gave me a sad look and sad 'no, I was cast as Ching Ho'.

Posted: 8/8/08 at 11:17pm

I have to be honest with you, those roles are not good roles, Asian or not. I mean... I would love to see an Asian male playing one of the better roles in Millie, like Jimmy or Graydon. I feel like this would be typecasting in the sense that whoever was Asian would automatically be assumed to play those roles. While I understand where it's coming from, it's not the typecasting advantageous to the Asian male in my opinion. The roles are not major characters, not great singing parts/acting parts. They sing in "Chinese" and with accents. I personally think the roles themselves are offensive. Honestly, I think the musical is rather offensive. Mind you, I used to love this show... and I still love some of the songs in the show and they are great to sing. Great tap dancing numbers, really fun to watch, but I think the overall concept with the fake Chinese hotel lady with an accent and the two Chinese boys who are 'slaves' of hers is offensive.

[eatlasagna]

Posted: 8/8/08 at 11:21pm

let me rephrase that... i meant it's great for minorities to be cast in roles mainly played by white people...

i just hate the argument that if minorities can be cast in roles played by white people than white people should be cast in roles played by minorities... it's completely different... i guess you have to be a minority to truly understand the frustration and pain that we go through with that casting process...

and i understand the West Side Story thing... when i heard that some Filipina actresses (joanna ampil in london and ma-anne dionisio in canada) were cast as Maria a part me thought that's awesome! but then a part of me also said... couldn't they find any latinos anywhere??? but it's weird cuz i know several Filipinos that could easily pass for Latino... hell people think i'm latino sometimes too AND black!

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 8/9/08 at 1:01am

The truth of it is, eatlasagna, in my opinion, anyway, that it shouldn't make a rat's ass difference what your race is unless there is a specific reason in the show that it would not be right for someone of a certain race to be cast in the role. People try to dance around it and have different viewpoints to be sensitive and fair, just like in any working environment. That frustrates me, because if we are really in a society where races are equal, then it just SHOULD NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE, period. Why should it even be an issue? It only becomes one when it is treated as such.

" have to be honest with you, those roles are not good roles, Asian or not. I mean... I would love to see an Asian male playing one of the better roles in Millie, like Jimmy or Graydon. I feel like this would be typecasting in the sense that whoever was Asian would automatically be assumed to play those roles. While I understand where it's coming from, it's not the typecasting advantageous to the Asian male in my opinion. The roles are not major characters, not great singing parts/acting parts."

Not meaty roles, but definitely not any less substantial acting-wise and comedy-wise than cardboard cut-outs like Jimmy or Graydon. Ching Ho was one of the most fun roles I've had.

I'm also getting the vibe in this thread that people keep saying that it is offensive because they are supposed to be offensive. If the characters offend you, can someone please WHY they are offensive? Not WHAT is offensive, since people keep saying that the characters and their situation is, but I honestly don't understand WHY that should offend.

[Show Off]

Posted: 8/9/08 at 1:18am

When my school did it they had a girl play one of the brothers because she was asian, and the other brother was white. None of they lines were changed so she was always referred to as a guy, but it mostly went over people's heads. I think people just had to stretch their minds a little for both things.

[shh282]

Posted: 8/9/08 at 1:33am

I worked on a production with two white brothers and one asian - they did eye make up on the two non asian ones and put them in this sort of outfit + wig and called it a day.

[COOOOLkid]

Posted: 8/9/08 at 1:34am

If the characters offend you, can someone please WHY they are offensive? Not WHAT is offensive, since people keep saying that the characters and their situation is, but I honestly don't understand WHY that should offend.

Your ignorance is just unbelievable. You don't understand why it would be offensive? When people comically portray a specific group of people by using a stereotype, it's offensive obviously to the group that is being made fun of.

I think it's even more terribly offensive to see white actors performing those two roles with thick Chinese accent. But if they don't have that dialect, it wouldn't make sense. Therefore in my opinion, the show shouldn't be done without 2 Asian actors.

And in this case, I think race/color does matter, just like in Ragtime, The Color Purple, or Miss Saigon. Those two characters ARE obviously Asian, no matter how small the part is. It wouldn't make sense to cast nontraditionally.

[deck925]

Posted: 8/9/08 at 1:36am

Actually Patash I perfectly understand this fact considering I was Mrs.Meers in the production I just finished, and if you read my earlier post I also stated that I understood it does take away from the joke. The King and I may not be a perfect example, but in either show you're going to have to pretend, whether it be a full cast or two actors (unless of course you find the correct race or ethnicity for the role). What I'm trying to say is that while Ching Ho and Bun Foo are indeed supposed to be asian, the contrast between Mrs.Meers and the two of them is quite great. It's very evident that Meers isn't really an asian woman, she reveals her true identity in the first scene. I know you're having difficulty with the choice of casting white males, but it's not the first time it's happened and it won't be the last.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 8/9/08 at 2:18am

Well, I think it's offensive because it's a pretty stereotypical presentation of Asians. Like someone else in the thread said, it brings to mind Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffanys. Even if they are played by Asians, IMO.

However, I disagree with the double standard being held here. If it's important that a character be a minority, then have a minority play that character, but if it's important for the character to be white, the same should apply as well. For instance, Sarah has to be black, but Mother has to be white.

Updated On: 8/9/08 at 02:18 AM

[Broadway_Bound_Star]

Posted: 8/9/08 at 6:11am

As an asian actor, I find this very offensive. When we did millie, we made sure that we had two clearly asian actors. Although it's ok for Mrs. Meers to be white, it's inexcusable for the brothers to be non asian. If you don't have the ethnicities to do the show. Don't do it. It's like Ragtime with a all white cast, or Kim played by a white girl, I just think that it's wrong. Period. As an asian actor, I've really only been cast as my race once, and that was as the Interpretor in The King And I, the director tried her darndest to get as many asians involved as she could. Luckily the King was asian. This raises another point, since the King And I is done so often, is it morally accepted that the King (along with the Kralahome, Lun Tha, Tuptim, and others) be played by caucasion people?

[LuvUrBatBoy]

Posted: 8/9/08 at 9:05am

Wow...I didnt realize this would be such a firey issue to some people. Forgive me, but if you were to actually examine the show, the chinese characters are the heroes in the end and arguably the smartest ones in the show. They outwit the villain and learn a new language.

If the casting of white people in the asian roles is going to be so infuriating (and I gather what the original poster was trying to state is that his situation is such that the probability of finding two asian actors for the roles was slim, not passing over 2 capable asian actors and casting white actors for the hell of it) I would recommend contacting MTI and seeing if the revised version of Millie is available where the Meers and Asian characters have been rewritten as Lithuanian. This was a fully licensed legal revision done by original book writers Richard Morris and Dick Scanlan that was commissioned by a theatre here in the DC area, where a ruckus was raised over the portrayal of the asian characters. The chinese dialogue is all translated to Lithuanian, the brothers are renamed Vosyllius and Vytos, and Meers poses as a Gypsy woman. I assure you it is not NEARLY as effective or funny, but Im sure the option is available.

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 8/9/08 at 10:56am

"Your ignorance is just unbelievable. You don't understand why it would be offensive? When people comically portray a specific group of people by using a stereotype, it's offensive obviously to the group that is being made fun of.

I think it's even more terribly offensive to see white actors performing those two roles with thick Chinese accent. But if they don't have that dialect, it wouldn't make sense. Therefore in my opinion, the show shouldn't be done without 2 Asian actors.

And in this case, I think race/color does matter, just like in Ragtime, The Color Purple, or Miss Saigon. Those two characters ARE obviously Asian, no matter how small the part is. It wouldn't make sense to cast nontraditionally."

While the show takes great lengths to appear politically correct (making them doing bad things against their will, unlike the film, and making them basically end up as the heroes in the end, as LuvUrBatBoy pointed out), I still stand by my opinion that, like so many other characters in the show, Ching Ho and Bun Foo are parodies of the absurd stereotypes of the time. No group is being made fun of.

I agree that the show probably shouldn't be done with two non-Asians IF those people are available. Having to cast white kids in the roles should not stop a high school or community theater from doing this very accessable, innocuous show.

[IdinaBellFoster]

Posted: 8/9/08 at 11:50am

The production I was involved in just put them in eye makeup and long hair, and called it a day. It might have possibly been offensive, but we heard not one complaint from anyone of Asian descent.

[iluvtheatertrash]

Posted: 8/9/08 at 7:52pm

I just music directed a production where we had caucasians in the roles. It does not work. Period. The point of Mrs. Meers entire act is destroyed.

[alliez92092]

Posted: 8/9/08 at 8:43pm

We just did Millie at my summer program and we had caucasians playing the roles. Seeing as we had no Asian kids in the program it was what we had to do.