Virtual Orchestra

[AvenueQPat]

Posted: 8/27/05 at 9:23pm

Also want to get your opinion on something.

As theatre people, would you rather hear a combo of Piano, Synth, Drums, Trumpet, French Horn

OR

a combo consisting of a Virtual Orchestra (covering all the insturments with the same sound quality of a synthesizaer), Drums, Trumpet, French Horn, and Live Violin

Just wondering - I am doing a production next summer and this is currently a debate - we use union musicians (which is another issue in itself - mixing them with a VO) but I don't think the general public much cares, at least in my experience - what do you theatre folks think?

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 8/27/05 at 9:25pm

Oh, live combo, without a doubt, if you can get it.

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 8/27/05 at 11:35pm

As someone who's played in a couple of pits myself, I can't recommend live musicians enough. In my personal biased opinion, the live instruments are an as an important aspect of a live show as anything.

[trpguyy]

Posted: 8/27/05 at 11:46pm

YOu can't beat GOOD live musicians, but personally (as a musician) I'd rather have a virtual orchestra than a bad live combo. Or better yet, do both. Rent the virtual orchestra and get as many live players as you can, and take out the virtual tracks accordingly. That way you get what the composer intended.

Posted: 8/27/05 at 11:55pm

I have to partially agree with trpguyy... you can't beat GOOD live musicians. If you know of some good musicians, then I would definitely go for live musicians. I love the feel of a live orchestra, and as an audience member... most can subconsciously tell the difference pretty easily. But then again: I honestly have never heard a full virtual orchestra. I don't know, but if I was in your position: I would just use live musicians.

--korenglish

[TG4802]

Posted: 8/28/05 at 1:10am

Trpguyy-

You've got to be kidding. The VO is a playback device. Would you just as soon do the production with tape? One of the most important aspects of live musical theatre is the interaction between the pit and the stage. How do you tell a performer to control their emotion to accommodate a machine? The sole purpose of the virtual orchestra machine is to replace live musicians. Is society really ready to give up its own aeshetics for profit? Go with as many live musicians as possible and the end product will truly be artistic.

[Jon]

Posted: 8/28/05 at 7:33am

In some cases, the choice is:

A: use a virtual orchestra and have the music sound pretty good.

B: use one keyboard and have the music sound weak and incomplete.

C: completely give up doing musicals, because the cost of hiring a live orchestra would bankrupt the theatre company.

[Theatrical Landladies]

Posted: 8/28/05 at 7:50am

We wouldn't believe virtual performers could do the stage roles justice so it is hard to accept virtual "musicians" having said that if it is a show where the audience will expect a BIG sound then a just having a couple of musicians could sound thin.
Most rights holders have various available orchestrations to make the most of the guys you can afford.

Good luck.

[AvenueQPat]

Posted: 8/28/05 at 8:01am

Double Post Sorry

Updated On: 8/28/05 at 08:01 AM

[AvenueQPat]

Posted: 8/28/05 at 8:01am

A Couple of Comments on this post - and I only bring them up because I have used a virtual orchestra machine with some HS productions in the past.

The Virtual Orchestra is, at its core, a MIDI File played back through an expensive sound sampler. There are some differences between this and a traditional synthesizer however.

1 - Synthesizers play on a patch, lets say Solo Oboe. When the music is already put into the system, then the computer can make expressive differences between a "static" synthesizaer note where each one will be played the same way, and adding some expression to each note, because it already knows what is going to be played.

2 - The system I am going to use if we did have to is the Sinfonia system which I have played before. You are able to follow singers naturally if you know what you are doing. Example (Please dont flame for my song choices) "What is This Feeling" durring Galindas "Unusally and Excedingly" solo, the insturment could follow that. You can add a spur of the moment vamp if you need to to cover for an actor or actress. You can jump backwards or forward a few measures or a verse if somebody forgets where they are in the song. What does it sound like? It still has the same basic patches of a synthesizer, but with a little mroe of a brain on it.

Just my 2 cents, but if the virtual orchestra was just a playbak system, then musicians would have been replaced when CD's first became available.

Please also keep in mind, in this specific instance, we are not looking to replace anybody. With the high cost of musicians where I live, the producers can have a 5 person combo. I basically can decide if I want to do Piano, Synth, and 3 other "color accoustic insturments", or go with the Sinfonia, and 4 other color insturments since that piano sounds are excellent.

So TG4802 - I don't want you to think I am trying to knock your opinion out of the water, but I just wanted to mention that its not just like a tape, and that our goal is not to replace live musicians - it is simply to have the fullest sound possible while continuing to hire professional union musicians.

[TG4802]

Posted: 8/28/05 at 12:45pm

Being a musician this is a very difficult one for me. The VO is destroying the perception, standard, and quality of live performance.

"Just my 2 cents, but if the virtual orchestra was just a playbak system, then musicians would have been replaced when CD's first became available."

When was the last time you went to a wedding and saw a live band? How many clubs do you frequent that prefer the live band over the deejay? In many cases, live bands in shows have already have been replaced by digital pre-records (Vegas, Branson MO, to name only a few) so I'm not sure I get your point.

The VO is indeed nothing more than a playback device utilizing sampled sounds of various instruments. What makes it different from a keyboard/synthesizer, is that a keyboard takes a musician to play and it can only make as many sounds as one has fingers.

The VO is operated by a "pecker" that merely taps the tempo of whatever is being performed, playing back the sounds of several instruments simultaneously. Dynamics, articulations, etc. are programmed in, making the subtleties static and not open for spontaneous interpretation.

It breaks my heart that you used this machine for a school production. So much for arts in education.

I realize this technology is growing, and it saddens me that rather than give a student a real musical instrument and teach that student to play, some educators prefer the easy way out.

If you are truly looking for the best performance you can get, go live and help society preserve the standard and quality of live performance.

I suggest you reach out to your local union and present a financial package that would enable you to hire the number of musicians you need within your budget. Hopefully you would be able to come to a scale wage agreement particular to your production that's equitable to you and the real live musicians you choose to use. The rental fee for the VO could be applied!

AvenueQPat, please let me apologize if you think I'm harping on you about this. That is not my intent. I'm afraid that there will come a day when an audience member will not recognize the sound of a real violin, flute, or trumpet and all the emotion, interpretation, and expression that makes it human. I realize that this is a broader picture than you probably had in mind, but it truly is the beginning of the end.

Updated On: 8/28/05 at 12:45 PM

[AvenueQPat]

Posted: 8/28/05 at 2:49pm

TG4802 - I don't think that you are harping at all. I love to get input from people that are informed on the matter or I would not have even asked.

You also raise some valid points in the post that you had. Specifically, and I should have been clearer in my original post, I am hired from outside the school district for a stipend to come in and do vocal direction, rehersal piano, coaching, etc., and I used Seussical and Ragtime at this school with the machine and between 4 and 8 student musicians mainly because I don't have the time to work with the student insturmentalists with the schedule, and the music and drama department wont work together to have somebody else doing work after school with student insturmentalists. I have not however turned anybody away who ever wanted to come and play, even if it meant simplifying a part for them. I just feel that the cast should have the best possible backing after 3 months of rehearsals, and I felt in that situation the Sinfonia was a better choice then me trying to conduct kids who had been there for the week before opening and try to play piano at the same time. It is something that the school needs to work on internally to get more cooperation, but-in my opinion - I was doing what was best for the students who had been working for the last 3 months. I totally hear where you are coming from though.

What upsets me about the local where I live, is that the musicians in the show make AT LEAST $120 more per week than the leading man or woman, or more for doublers. This is a great company, but the funds just aren't there to pay ensemble members more then $50 a week. I think that its a great training ground for those who choose to accept it, and its great for the local performers who want to work on a big show, but at the same time my reed player was making more than our Director was for his work. Next summer, the plan is to do Beauty and the Beast, but that is a show that needs some great backing to it, and if we have a budget for 5 musicians and thats all, I don't see how you can have a good sounding show. When it was mentioned this year that we wanted to do the 2 Piano arrangment with Drums then the union was up in arms because we had to cut back 8 musicians then what we normally had. We did come to an agreement of 5 musicians, but it still sounded empty, and I think we would have been better at doing a 2-Piano version.

I agree, however, that nothing can take the place of a real trumpet or violin, but with the financial ability, it comes down to having 5 players by themselves, or 4 players with a full sounding background behind them.

Honestly, I have no idea what is going to happen on the show, I just wanted to take a few minutes and get input from some other professionals, so I appreciate everything you have said, and feel free to respond more here, or to my personal E-mail - [e-mail] - because I would love to speak more with you.