#1
Posted: 11/10/06 at 12:43am
The Citizen Kane of the footlights, if you will....
What is the most innovative, genre-bending broadway musical?
#2
Posted: 11/10/06 at 12:46am
Well, OKLAHOMA and SHOWBOAT were the starters.
"If you are going to do something, do it well. And leave something witchy."
-Charlie Manson
#3
Posted: 11/10/06 at 12:57am
Well, if your using Citizen Kane as an example as the best of an artform, I think it would be West Side Story. But if you mean it as the title suggests, I would agree with munk.
I have several names, one is Julian2. I am also The Opps Girl. But cross me, and I become Bitch Dooku!
#4
Posted: 11/10/06 at 12:58am
Ooh, you beat me to it with West Side Story. Also, I guess CATS was pretty innovative and genre-bending...
#5
Posted: 11/10/06 at 1:00am
On paper, there are a handful of musicals that are better than WEST SIDE STORY.
"If you are going to do something, do it well. And leave something witchy."
-Charlie Manson
#6
Posted: 11/10/06 at 1:03am
SWEENEY TODD.
Just try going to listen to anything else after SWEENEY.
Just try going to listen to anything else after SWEENEY.
Cast albums are NOT "soundtracks."
Live theatre does not use a "soundtrack." If it did, it wouldn't be live theatre!
I host a weekly one-hour radio program featuring cast album selections as well as songs by cabaret, jazz and theatre artists. The program, FRONT ROW CENTRE is heard Sundays 9 to 10 am and also Saturdays from 8 to 9 am (eastern times) on www.proudfm.com
#7
Posted: 11/10/06 at 1:08am
"Sunday in the Park with George" is pretty brilliant.
"If you are going to do something, do it well. And leave something witchy."
-Charlie Manson
#8
Posted: 11/10/06 at 1:09am
Which is why we don't simply read musicals Munk :-P
"If there was a Mount Rushmore for Broadway scores, "West Side Story" would be front and center. It snaps, it crackles it pops! It surges with a roar, its energy and sheer life undiminished by the years" - NYPost reviewer Elisabeth Vincentelli
#9
Posted: 11/10/06 at 1:11am
ON paper, as in structure, book, score.
What made WEST SIDE so brilliant (besides it's score) was it's original staging. I have never seen why some people think WEST SIDE is the greatest thing.
What made WEST SIDE so brilliant (besides it's score) was it's original staging. I have never seen why some people think WEST SIDE is the greatest thing.
"If you are going to do something, do it well. And leave something witchy."
-Charlie Manson
#10
Posted: 11/10/06 at 1:14am
I don't think WSS is the greatest thing ever or anything, but it's gotta be mentioned in a conversation about innovative musicals.
#11
Posted: 11/10/06 at 2:54am
None of these, to be honest. West Side Story was a show about love, with tons of dancing -- nothing innovative, nothing genre-bending. Sweeney Todd was a dark piece of work -- again, nothing new, nothing genre-bending. Maybe I'm looking too much into it, but I'd say most 1st's are this category. That is, the first show with flying, the first show to use water effects, the first show to use revolving sets -- these are the most innovative of their time.
#12
Posted: 11/10/06 at 3:10am
"None of these, to be honest. West Side Story was a show about love, with tons of dancing -- nothing innovative, nothing genre-bending. "
Are you serious? West Side Story was one of the most innovative shows to grace the Broadway stage when it opened in the late 50s. The whole prologue is told through dance, the storyline itself was taken from the actual headlines, the racial statements the show made were certainly innovative, and it featured some of the best collaborations in a Broadway show. The Jerome Robbins' staging was so significant that probably there would not be an A Chorus Line without a West Side Story.
Are you serious? West Side Story was one of the most innovative shows to grace the Broadway stage when it opened in the late 50s. The whole prologue is told through dance, the storyline itself was taken from the actual headlines, the racial statements the show made were certainly innovative, and it featured some of the best collaborations in a Broadway show. The Jerome Robbins' staging was so significant that probably there would not be an A Chorus Line without a West Side Story.
#13
Posted: 11/10/06 at 8:40am
I have no idea rate them amongst each other.
I would agree with Showboat and Oklahoma.
Hair
Magic Show
A Chorus Line
Starlight Express
The Lion King
Spelling Bee
Sweeney Todd revival
I would agree with Showboat and Oklahoma.
Hair
Magic Show
A Chorus Line
Starlight Express
The Lion King
Spelling Bee
Sweeney Todd revival
Updated On: 11/10/06 at 08:40 AM
#14
Posted: 11/10/06 at 10:36am
I was just going to say Hair...come on, definitely the most innovative costumes in a long time.
#15
Posted: 11/10/06 at 11:03am
Hair was more innovative for the music.
For costumes, I would have to go with "Oh, Calcutta!" although your right Hair did it first.
And was it ever innovative to add an '!' to the name?
For costumes, I would have to go with "Oh, Calcutta!" although your right Hair did it first.
And was it ever innovative to add an '!' to the name?
Updated On: 11/10/06 at 11:03 AM
#16
Posted: 11/10/06 at 11:06am
The black crook perhaps? Credited by many as the first musical ever. The evil characters name in the musical, Count Wolfenstein, happens to be the name of one of the most groundbreaking computer games ever, Wolfenstein 3D, which heralded the first person shooter genre.
Updated On: 11/10/06 at 11:06 AM
#17
Posted: 11/10/06 at 11:29am
What Foscas said. Additionally, it was one of the first shows to tell such a dark tale--to end act 1 with two dead bodies. It incorporated a lot of operatic techniques. The demanding show gave way to the new requirement of performers who could act, sing AND dance. Also it's reliance on young talent was influential. I mean, WSS was voted the most influential musical of all time by playbill.
I know what you meant Munk, but since the staging/direction and action is so important, I still maintain that is why it's not read.
BUT...just one minute...I'll give you it's not the best libretto, but score?! The complexity of the music, the way the score tells the story, the mix of Latin rhythms with romantic with tension with chaos, I mean I could go song by song, but I don't understand how one can't consider WSS as one of the greatest scores of all time. Wait, you included score as part of why it's not the best, but then indicated it part of its brilliance. Whatever. Score's amazing.
Besides, Robbins' direction/choreography has to be taken into account when you think WSS. Whether or not you consider that part of "paper" it's definitive of WSS.
I know what you meant Munk, but since the staging/direction and action is so important, I still maintain that is why it's not read.
BUT...just one minute...I'll give you it's not the best libretto, but score?! The complexity of the music, the way the score tells the story, the mix of Latin rhythms with romantic with tension with chaos, I mean I could go song by song, but I don't understand how one can't consider WSS as one of the greatest scores of all time. Wait, you included score as part of why it's not the best, but then indicated it part of its brilliance. Whatever. Score's amazing.
Besides, Robbins' direction/choreography has to be taken into account when you think WSS. Whether or not you consider that part of "paper" it's definitive of WSS.
"If there was a Mount Rushmore for Broadway scores, "West Side Story" would be front and center. It snaps, it crackles it pops! It surges with a roar, its energy and sheer life undiminished by the years" - NYPost reviewer Elisabeth Vincentelli
#18
Posted: 11/10/06 at 1:12pm
I don't think WSS broke any new ground. Using dance to tell part of the story had been done a few years earlier in Oklahoma!
I agree WSS does it better in all aspects and really showed how powerful those techniques could be, but the concepts weren't new.
I agree WSS does it better in all aspects and really showed how powerful those techniques could be, but the concepts weren't new.
#19
Posted: 11/10/06 at 1:30pm
Some parts of this thread made me laugh a little, sorry.
Genre-bending? I'd hardly say that Bombay Dreams is innovative for shooting water out of the ground. If we measured innovation through technical triumphs, we'd be left with Wicked as a major leap in theatrical innovation. If anything innovative, it serves to pull the wool over your eyes, masking audiences with spectacle to cover up a really weak book and other suffering aspects to it.
I'd consider WSS, Pacific Overtures, Chorus Line, Oklahoma, Black Crook all landmark shows in the development in musical theater in America.
Genre-bending? I'd hardly say that Bombay Dreams is innovative for shooting water out of the ground. If we measured innovation through technical triumphs, we'd be left with Wicked as a major leap in theatrical innovation. If anything innovative, it serves to pull the wool over your eyes, masking audiences with spectacle to cover up a really weak book and other suffering aspects to it.
I'd consider WSS, Pacific Overtures, Chorus Line, Oklahoma, Black Crook all landmark shows in the development in musical theater in America.
#20
Posted: 11/10/06 at 2:19pm
I see what you're saying, Foscas, and on that level, it's probably true. (A Chorus Line is definitely genre-bending in that it lacks the standard plot of a show, and thus, what genre is it?) Still, I can't see West Side Story as being innovative. It's a phenomenal show, and it pulls off its acting, staging, and choreography better than any other, but I don't necessarily feel like that's innovative.
Then again, I think the problem stems from different definitions of innovative. To some, innovative could mean actual technical innovations -- that's me. I see the word innovative as new technological improvements, i.e. completely about the technology of a show. Then, to others, such as some of you, innovative is about the originality of a score, the beauty of choreography, the racial or political or personal statements made by the show. That's our problem, right there.
That's the only part we differ on. :) I think the show is brilliant as well, but our definitions of innovative just aren't alike.
Then again, I think the problem stems from different definitions of innovative. To some, innovative could mean actual technical innovations -- that's me. I see the word innovative as new technological improvements, i.e. completely about the technology of a show. Then, to others, such as some of you, innovative is about the originality of a score, the beauty of choreography, the racial or political or personal statements made by the show. That's our problem, right there.
That's the only part we differ on. :) I think the show is brilliant as well, but our definitions of innovative just aren't alike.
#21
Posted: 11/10/06 at 2:25pm
Allegro and Company
#22
Posted: 11/10/06 at 2:50pm
'Dreamgirls' was really innovative in the way it made much of its score exist both as narrative AND the pop 'hits' of the fictitious performers the narrative was about.
I've often heard the original staging was equally innovative but, honestly, I didn't see that production to be able to comment on it accurately.
I've often heard the original staging was equally innovative but, honestly, I didn't see that production to be able to comment on it accurately.
Updated On: 11/10/06 at 02:50 PM
#23
Posted: 11/10/06 at 3:33pm
Show Boat was the first musical to really alter the genre. Oklahoma took it a step further and more or less cemented musical theatre as a dramatic art form. West Side story was the next major innovation in the art form, so it really depends on which point in musical theatre history you are analysing.
But as for MOST INNOVATIVE, given the current state of the art form, the social and political climate, and the era in which it was written, it would have to be Show Boat.
But as for MOST INNOVATIVE, given the current state of the art form, the social and political climate, and the era in which it was written, it would have to be Show Boat.
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
#24
Posted: 11/10/06 at 3:52pm
"For costumes, I would have to go with "Oh, Calcutta!" although your right Hair did it first."
I believe Hair's nudity was done in half light and the actors only had to take it off if they wanted to. The nudity in Oh! Calcutta was in full light, required of the actors, and so important to the show, i.e. the only reason the show existed.
I believe Hair's nudity was done in half light and the actors only had to take it off if they wanted to. The nudity in Oh! Calcutta was in full light, required of the actors, and so important to the show, i.e. the only reason the show existed.
If anyone ever tells you that you put too much Parmesan cheese on your pasta, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
#25
Posted: 11/10/06 at 4:00pm
VolleyBaller, I respect your definition of innovative and understand your point. However, I do not see how someone who defines innovative as I do (in terms of artistic achievements more than technical/technological) would not consider West Side Story a ground-breaking piece. In addition, to what wickedrentq said, it is also important to note that West Side Story was the first show to give a name to each member of the chorus so all of them had a character which is why--as wickedrentq said--all the dancers in the chorus needed to be actors and singers as well.
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