What shows should be given another chance?- Page 2

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 3:25am

You're right, when I wrote "complete flop," I was thinking in my head that people always make it seem like a complete failure and nasty flop, and now is some mysterious, long gone treasure. Maybe it's just the impression I got, but I'm aware that it was financially a flop, but gained numerous Tony awards, a fair share of rave reviews, and still didn't seem to pull through. I guess that's what I meant - in my head it's what I was thinking.

[paradox_error]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 3:42am

i still gripe that Two Gentlemen of Verona won Best Musical over Follies. Follies won seven Tony Awards, including Best Score, Best Director and Best Actress. Two Gentleman of Verona won three from memory, including best musical. I have never even heard of Two Gentlemen of Verona the musical! Maybe I am not the best person to judge then, but it seems it had a rather short shelf life

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 4:40am

I've read the script for it, and heard two of the songs. It's okay, not my thing. I think what did FOLLIES in, as far as best musical is concerned, was the lack of a truly developed storyline, and the script. I love the music to FOLLIES, but somehow wish they had done the finale differently. It's not concrete enough, and to tell you the truth, I just don't understand what the FOLLIES finale is supposed to tell the audience.

[paradox_error]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 4:53am

true
but flawed as it is I really think that Follies should have won hands down.
this is just another example of tony voters gone mad

[magruder]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 5:02am

Two Gentlemen of Verona is pretty damned delightful. I love Follies, mind you, but Two Gentlemen of Verona was just a rollicking good time. The score, as mentioned in the CD liner notes, was meant to sound like something you'd hear as you'd pass through different New York City neighborhoods. It has a kaleidoscopic, patchwork feel...a little bit of everything. I know the Follies purists resent it terribly, but Two Gents is really a fun, sweet show.

Follies, for all its brilliance, failed I think due to the fact that it presents two marriages in turmoil. Not something that the middle aged audience that attends Broadway musicals wanted to see and hear. The four characters discover something about themselves in their "Follies" numbers and when the harsh light of reality breaks through the back wall of the theatre in the morning, Buddy and Sally are going back to a complete sham of a marriage which will probably end as soon as they get back to Phoenix, and Ben and Phyllis are probably going to soldier on. It's bleak, even somewhat misogynistic (Sally is an obsessive disaster, and Phyllis is a castrating drag queen). But the show is still unforgettable for all of the irony-laden musical sequences. Goldman also tried to soften the show's dark ending by giving the 60-70 year old characters additional material in the finale for the Paper Mill rewrite. He wanted to show that eventually, you do overcome whatever traumas you are suffering in middle age. Hattie, Solange, Heidi, the Whitmans, Carlotta and Stella (despite her memory loss) are all seen as strong, level headed, sturdy survivors for whom the party goes on. I think the implication is that Buddy, Ben, Sally and Phyllis will get there eventually. That added bit of hopefulness, without being explicit in the book, did wonders for me without really changing the entire tone of the show.

Updated On: 11/28/04 at 05:02 AM

[paradox_error]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 10:37am

thanks macgruder! i have been wondering about Two Gentlemen of Verona for quite a while, and it's nice to hear some good things about it.
So do you think it would make a good candidate for a revival? If it is as good as you say it is, surely it would be good to open up a new audience for it.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 10:44am

Hello Again
Chess- which of course, needs rewriting

[secret-soul]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 11:09am

Side Show
Scarlet Pimpernel
Jane Eyre
Aspects of Love

[magruder]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 11:09am

Baltimore's Center Stage is doing a revival of Two Gentlemen of Verona in Feb-March, '05, and I was planning to go down there and see how it holds up.

Two Gents is certainly a product of its time, with its early 70s "you can't love another without loving yourself" mantra. And the sound of it is VERY '70s, but I think it's so retro, it sounds cool again. In one way, the show improves on the Shakespeare source, filling out the character of Proteus and his hopelessly fickle ways, which seem arbitrary in the original play. But one aspect of the show is particularly relevant right now. The hawkish character of the Duke and his song "Bring The Boys Back Home" was a screed against the Vietnam War. I'm so curious to see how this material plays now that we have another unpopular war on our hands.

And to return to the Two Gents/Follies Best Musical battle, the Tony Awards have a history of awarding Best Musical to the crowd pleaser over the more important, groundbreaking show. (Only once, IMO, did it go the other way, when in 1994, Passion won over Beauty and the Beast). I too, believe that Follies should have won, but at least with the six awards it did win, its importance was somewhat recognized. Even with the Best Musical Tony, Follies probably still would have been unpopular with general audiences, and would probably have ended up in the loss column, due to its enormous cast, orchestra and physical production.

[bta212]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 11:19am

Magruder--thanks for the interesting info/insight re:2 Gentlemen;it was never on my radar screen, and now I'm off to Footlights to buy the OCR. I agree, too, that the importance of Follies was ultimately sufficiently appreciated without having won the Tony. I also agree strongly that the content was disagreeable enough to the core theatre-going community at the time to guarantee, ultimately, a financial loss.

[magruder]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 12:31pm

BTA, I hope you enjoy. Amazon has sound clips of every track if you want to hear a little bit of the CD before you buy it.

Several posters have mentioned Mack & Mabel. I think that show has had more than enough chances to succeed, between the Gower Champion original production, the London production, the Paper Mill production (which was announced for Broadway and then cancelled) and then the current Goodspeed production. Despite the fantastic score, the show is always a let-down. I'm not certain it will ever be made to work.

70, Girls, 70, despite the messiness of its original book which forces an unnecessary "show within a show" concept on the material, is just a complete delight. I worked on a production of it, and the audience ate it up to the very final minute. It has some huge laughs in it, and with the exception of the dated, expendable "You and I," the score is first-rate. (The two songs for the London rewrite, "Well Laid Plan" and "I Can't Do That Anymore" are also pretty great, even with that filthy 'blind man' joke in the latter).

Updated On: 11/28/04 at 12:31 PM

[onceadancer2]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 12:42pm

I'd like to see a revival of JUNO. It would probably need major re-working on the libretto but, given the wonderful music, it might make a strong contender for shows that should be given a second chance. As an aside, I saw the Abbey Theatre production of JUNO AND THE PAYCOCK in 1940. In 2004, I still remember it!

[TabooWickedFan]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 1:00pm

Taboo

[Unknown User]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 1:05pm

Parade!!!!


it is so incredible

[My Fair Lady]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 1:06pm

Snoopy and You're A Good Man Charlie Brown. I think the concert cast of Snoopy would be great Off-Broadway o mayeb even on Broadway.

[edenespinosalover]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 2:15pm

Parade
Side Show
The Fix

[bronxboundexpress]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 2:25pm

THE CIVL WAR. And they need to call it a concert this time so people don't think it's a musical and the give it awful reviews because they didn't know what it was trying to be.

[honeyhoney]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 2:36pm

A New Brain

[Broadway is life04]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 2:47pm

This one's really old, but "Do Black Patent Leather Shoes Really Reflect Up" it's a really funny one about little Kids and they're travel through Catholic school...it's really funny.


HEre are some others:

Tap Dance Kid
Bring Back Birdie

[Broadway is life04]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 2:48pm

This one's really old, but "Do Black Patent Leather Shoes Really Reflect Up" it's a really funny one about little Kids and they're travel through Catholic school...it's really funny.


HEre are some others:

Tap Dance Kid
Bring Back Birdie

[Theatreboy33]

Posted: 11/28/04 at 3:20pm

Although I enjoyed DOTV, and would like it to be given a second shot, I realize this will NEVER happen. The composer, director, star, and book writer all basically hate one another it seems. To get them all to reconsider the production would take an act of god. And even with a new director, book, and star, i think it would still take a miracle to get the overly self-important jim steinman back to any negotiation stages. Oh well. I just wish some sort of cast recording had been made.

[karinagw]

Posted: 12/13/04 at 8:28am

Comin' Uptown. A Harlem version of A Christmas Carol. Lovely adaptation, some beautiful lyrics, and a case of bad timing. Alas, as it was the late Gregory Hines' baby, it's chances of return are even slimmer than they have been.

[wildcat]

Posted: 12/13/04 at 9:26am

Bring Back Birdie is universally ackowledged to be one of the worst shows ever to hit Broadway, and even the authors admitted that it was written simply to meet the demand from high schools for something to follow up their endless productions of Bye Bye Birdie.
I would agree with House of Flowers
The Golden Apple
70 Girls 70
How about Promenade? Weird as it is, it's quite often thrilling and very funny.

[redhotinnyc2]

Posted: 12/13/04 at 10:23am

Floyd Collins, Parade, and Dream True, to name a few

[Loge]

Posted: 12/13/04 at 10:30am

Wow, before I even opened the thread, I thought "Dance of the Vampires" and "The Scarlet Pimpernel" - just like the original poster.

I think "DOTV", in it's original Vienna form (with a few tweeks) would have stood a much better chance than the crap production that ended up on Broadway. The original version is one of my favorite musicals, and is astonishing. It is beautiful, powerful, passionate, and the comedy falls where it should - not with Krolock. I am still praying that it finds it's way, in that form, to the English speaking world.

I also adore "The Scarlet Pimpernel" and feel it has one of the best scores I have ever heard. Flame away, but I feel Wildhorn wrote his absolute best score for this show, far exceeding anything he's done. The story is beautiful and the music is wonderful and charming. I would LOVE to see this show re-worked, as a sung-through musical, and end up on the stage again. I would even love for it to tour, in one of its Broadway forms, so I could see it.

Now, was "Pimpernel" a flop? I know it didn't recoup its original investment (right?), but it did play for two years and did garner a nomination for Best Musical. In my eyes, that does not qualify it as a flop, but it seems most others do call it a flop.

Updated On: 12/13/04 at 10:30 AM