Why couldn't they have hired good singers for the SWEENEY movie?- Page 3

[worrell4077]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 2:58pm

I'm going to say this because alot of you don't seem to understand. Sondheim had final casting approval, Sondheim was the one that gave the okay on all the actors including Carter. It didn't matter that Carter and Burton are a couple, the decision was made by Sondheim.

I love this movie and although her voice is a bit awkward, she still gives a great performance. Sondheim also said that he prefers actors who sing rather than singers who act.

[nitsua]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 3:09pm

Burton's said it again and again. He chose Helena because of her talent, not because they've got a child together. Helena's said that it makes her job harder when she has to work for Tim. It's not an easy come, easy go situation.

If they hired good singers, it would've been a ****ty movie.

[H.Higgins]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 3:44pm

I wanted to quote some excerpts from the "Sweeney Todd" Film Companion book:


1) "'A couple of major stars came in and "exposed" themselves, singing the score with just a piano player, and we videoed them,' says Zanuck. 'There were about eight in all. We did several in London, and there were major people who didn't come in but made their own recordings and sent them in.' "


2) "Once back in the UK, having auditioned everyone, Burton decided to eschew making a decision for a while longer. 'I was extremely tortured and I left it alone for a few weeks,' he admits. 'Then I looked at them all, with Helena's at the end. I was perfectly expecting to say, "I got to go with somebody else here", but I was weirdly surprised and thought, "She's good!" Then I thought, "How do we go through this?" because it was a bit of a political process. It wasn't with Johnny, but it was in that particular case.'"


3) "It was then that Burton showed all the tapes to Zanuck: 'He put me in a projection room by myself. I played them all, and then he came in. I said, "I don't know what to tell you but it's Helena...Some of these people may have better voices, but this is Mrs Lovett, there's no question about it." I must say, despite the close relationship between Tim and Helena, he was absolutely not biased. I'd never seen anyone dealing with someone that they're very close to be so objective as he was. And this wasn't a charade. We didn't put all these people through an exercise. She had less of a chance really.'"


4) "In the end, though, as with Sweeney, it was Sondheim who had final approval. The composer watched all the candidates' tapes and, without knowing Burton's choice, opted for Bonham Carter. 'He said, "I think she is far and away the best",' Zanuck reveals. '"Not voice-wise, because there were some really skilled singers, but voice and personality and look and everything [combined], she was Mrs Lovett."'"


-Just thought some comments from the sources might be a valuable addition to the discussion.

Updated On: 4/10/08 at 03:44 PM

[philcrosby]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 3:52pm

Well done, HH.

[AvenueQResident]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 4:09pm

When I hear the complaints of the singing in Sweeney Todd, I really hope people are referring to HBC AND JD acting their way through the songs, rather them being world-class singers...

[KrissySim]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 4:26pm

"Let's give her props, she did have to sleep with Mr. Burton. "

"So Helena didn't have to sleep with Mr. Burton.
Even more props to her."

BS to both statements. Burton and Carter obviously work well together, otherwise they wouldn't do so many films together. Their marriage (etc) is irrelevant. When a film director finds a team he/she can work well with they will usually work together again rather than work with "personalities" they have not worked with and may not be compatible with, that could interfere with the production.

[elphabelle07]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 4:26pm

Higgins, you always know what to say!

[H.Higgins]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 4:44pm

elphabelle07,

What a nice thing to say! Thank you, that means a lot to me.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 5:58pm

Why couldn't they have hired good singers for the MUSIC MAN movie? Would it have killed them to hire a Harold Hill who could sing?

Why couldn't they have hired good singers for the WEST SIDE STORY movie? Would it have killed them to hire a Maria and Tony who could sing?

Why couldn't they have hired good singers for the MY FAIR LADY movie? Would it have killed them to hire a Eliza Dolittle and Professor Higgins who could sing?


Yankeefan, do you think it makes you look informed to criticize when you clearly have no concept of the reality?

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 6:00pm

The difference, orangeskittles, is dubbing.

I miss the days of dubbing.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 6:06pm

Not all of them were dubbed. But Yankee didn't say "Why weren't the actors dubbed for the Sweeney movie?", he wanted "good singers" to be cast instead of the good actors.

Updated On: 4/10/08 at 06:06 PM

[sparrman]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 6:30pm

It would have been a better movie if Helena Bonham Carter could at least have sung as well as Johnny Depp. Her ridiculously weak voice seriously damaged the movie for me.

Quoting official movie propaganda to "prove" it was an unbiased choice is a bit silly, I think. Of course it was biased. They're all going to put a harmonious face on the package, including Sondheim, for the good of the project. But who the hell knows what really went on.

[H.Higgins]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 6:43pm

sparrman-

If you read my post, you'll notice that I never said anything about proof. The word prove surrounded by quotes suggests I said and intended something I did not. I don't appreciate that.

I was simply adding comments from the people involved in the casting for the purpose of discussion.

- "But who the hell knows what really went on."

That's absolutely right. If I had to take sides, though, my stance wouldn't so cynical. I don't think it's too naive to think that the creators and producers cast Bonham Carter for what she would bring to the role. And judging by her stellar performance, one can confidently believe that she GENUINELY earned the role.

[sparrman]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 6:52pm

H. Higgins --

Not what I meant by "prove", but I apologize for offending you or anybody with it. I meant the reaction to your post, plus on the surface having first hand testimonial from the creatives in charge might seem like "proof" (if of course they mightn't have ulterior motives behind what they said).

As to your last sentence, I'm sure you won't disagree with me if I say that it all depends on who that "one" is!

[best12bars]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 7:25pm

I'm actually tired of people who say, "Well SONDHEIM approved it, or was happy with it, or chose it," as if that will suddenly change my opinion of the movie or show.

It doesn't.

I'm a ticket-wielding audience member with a valid opinion, just like the rest of you. Sondheim is the COMPOSER. He isn't MY OPINION on anything.

Believe it or not, I have one of my own. Hopefully, you do too.



EDIT: "Complaints about the singing? I'll take Johnny Depp and Helena Bonham Carter over Richard Gere and Renee Zellwegger any day. And so does anyone with anything approaching sense."

Okay, Roscoe, aside from being insulting, you're also tone deaf and can't judge singing talents. Just sayin', since you went there.

Updated On: 4/10/08 at 07:25 PM

[caitlinette]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 7:30pm

Thanks for that Higgins. I didn't know that before.

[Mekroth]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 7:33pm

People mention Sondheim's approval to show that Helena didn't screw her way to being Lovett. She didn't sleep with Sondheim.

[nitsua]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 7:37pm

Let's hope not.

[best12bars]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 7:42pm

"People mention Sondheim's approval to show that Helena didn't screw her way to being Lovett. She didn't sleep with Sondheim."


LOL. Well, that's true enough.

But Mr. Sondheim or even the Pope choosing her... or Good Housekeeping or American Idol... doesn't affect my opinion of her performance in the film.

It's not a validation of her being good. It just means that she was the composer's first choice, from the screen tests he was shown. Yay for her.

But when I watch a movie, I form my own opinion. I don't think, "well SONDHEIM picked her... so I have to like her too."

I actually thought her acting in many instances was brilliant, and her singing was passable. Not bad, but not above "passable" either. At times her nuances carried the movie when Depp's one-dimensional "bogey man" killer did not.

[H.Higgins]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 8:26pm

sparrman-

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate the clarification. And no, I certainly don't disagree with you; Each "one" will have her/his own own opinion. I just feel that, like her or not in the role, she was not cast because of her relationship with Burton and it's unfair to say so. That's where I'm coming from.

best12bars-

"I actually thought her acting in many instances was brilliant, and her singing was passable. Not bad, but not above "passable" either. At times her nuances carried the movie when Depp's one-dimensional "bogey man" killer did not."

Well-put. I share those sentiments.

[Rotel1026]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 9:43pm

Those quotes from the sources themselves are laughable, how often have you seen comments from cast/creative of any movie or show putting down one of the leads in their movie. Watch any making of on any DVD and you'll get how great it was to work on this movie, we became like family, etc. I'm not saying it might not be true in some cases, but they do call it promotion for a reason

"Who? And don't mention Broadway actresses because only a handful of them could have toned it down for film."

Apparently you didn't read my whole post. I said that casting name actors in the roles apparently didn't help their box office very much. So why are you going to ask me to name some actresses who could have done the job but completely omit all theater actresses?

And just how many fans does HBC have? Are there very many people out there who would go watch a movie strictly based on the fact that she's in it? I understand casting JD in the movie because he's got a lot of fans who would go see the movie strictly because he's in it but there's no reason they could not have cast much better singers in the rest of the role. And to be quite honest, the worse singer in the whole movie for me was HBC. Just like there's been several musicals on Broadway lately where the creators seemed to be so anti-musical, it seemed like Burton was like that as well. If you are not a fan of musicals, why are you making one? That just makes no sense to me.

[sparrman]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 9:50pm

I'm not inclined to sit down simultaneously with a DVD remote control, keyboard, and piano vocal score to figure this out definitively... but does anyone else think there were some odd melodic turns HBC took that were not in the score? Subtle things, but I remember thinking two or three times "That's not exactly how that melody really goes, is it?". And a tough harmony which she plain old didn't sing... I think it was "...that everybody goes down well with beer".

My main complaint with her, really, was just lack of power. Couldn't she at least sing the lines as loudly and forcefully as she would if she was SPEAKING them?
Updated On: 4/10/08 at 09:50 PM

[BustopherPhantom]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 9:59pm

I bought the DVD last week, and hit my third viewing today. Some final thoughts:

1) On repeat viewings, both Depp and Carter's performances grow in depth. I think better of Depp's performance now, but he's still too much of a "silent film villain" to take the complete emotional journey Sweeney is supposed to.

Saying that Carter's performance is the best in the film is more than an understatement: she blows everyone else out of the water. Her only problem is a mush-mouthiness with some of the lyrics.

2) It was a good idea for the DVD makers to include captions: I'm not sure most of the film would be intelligible if they weren't there. Mush-mouth-edness (especially on Carter's part) and too-soft whispering has been encouraged far too much.

3) The technical aspects, as to be expected on a Tim Burton film, provide some of the best parts of the film. The final image before the credits is so crushingly moving that it brings me to tears every time.

4) I don't quite understand the choice to give Mrs. Lovett some genuine feeling toward Toby. It's mildly touching to see her cry after shutting Toby in the bakehouse, but it doesn't jive with her status as a person "without any redeeming qualities".

With what Lovett does by the end of the movie, all the horrible things she's done, having her just be a shallow, evil creature would have been better.

FINALLY
Tim Burton's SWEENEY TODD falls short of being a great film, thanks to Burton's sometimes-too-wild touches, "whisper-so-I-can't-hear-you"-ness, and a sloppy hand on the story that prevents the second act from throttling forward at full force. We'll just have to settle with an adaptation that is very good.

REALLY FINALLY
For any BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER fans out there, Anthony Stewart Head (who plays Giles in the show) makes a very very very small appearance. See if you can find him.

Updated On: 4/10/08 at 09:59 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 10:02pm

does anyone else think there were some odd melodic turns HBC took that were not in the score? Subtle things, but I remember thinking two or three times "That's not exactly how that melody really goes, is it?".


Here's my thought on that, and I'll be honest with you... since I started out by saying Helena's voice was "passable."

Her pitch is quite good. I actually heard Sondheim's notes as he had written them. Even Angela Lansbury fudged a few of them, which is probably what you're used to hearing... and why you're saying things sounded weird to you.

Helena was more on pitch than Angela. She was actually hitting the notes he wrote them.

However...

Her voice, as an instrument, is not much above a ten-year-old boy soprano. A pure tone. SOLID pitch. And little (if any) maturity, bravado or skill. It's just a simple, straight voice that hits the right notes.

But hit the right notes?

Yes... She did.

Updated On: 4/10/08 at 10:02 PM

[sparrman]

Posted: 4/10/08 at 10:08pm

best12bars --

Ooh, you're gonna make me get that DVD remote, keyboard, and piano vocal score...