You Guys are SO JUDGY! (I just saw Evita)- Page 2

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 7/21/12 at 5:07pm

I'm only basing this on the recording, but I don't think the issue is Elena's accent- her diction is actually pretty decent. For me, the problem was just that her voice, though she has the notes, is simply unpleasant to listen to. It's more than just having the notes- her voice lacks a certain richness that makes some sections hard to listen to. Still, she's better than Ricky Martin.

[GlindatheGood22]

Posted: 7/21/12 at 5:24pm

I do so love the QUAL.

[Rainbowhigh23]

Posted: 7/21/12 at 5:32pm

I am so going to make a poster of Elena doing the QUAL and have her autograph it.

[Wishing Only Wounds]

Posted: 7/21/12 at 5:43pm

"I feel secretly embarrassed for anyone claiming not to understand the lyrics when Elena sings them. Partly because these comments inadvertently make the posters seem like they inhabit some kind of incredibly sheltered, Bible-belt, godforsaken little town in Middle America that has never been exposed to anything non-American..."

I had a lot of trouble understanding her accent, and that's because she does something to it. It's not your everyday Argentine accent. Scorpion, you really didn't put much thought into your post. I grew up in a very diverse area, and know many people from Argentina, yet missed most of what Elena said/sung. I don't know if she's trying to stress her accent, or is watering it down, ultimately making it more garbled, but it is hard to understand.

As far as your Middle America tangent, it has very little merit. The show is playing in the US, like most shows, it should be tweaked (and for the most part has been) for the audience. We see the same thing all the time (ie: Billy Elliot-we'll surely see it for Matilda) and it happens all over the world: in Australia (ie: Wicked, Billy Elliot, and Mary Poppins) and England (ie: Legally Blonde and Hairspray).

That claim was quite arrogant. Being multi-cultural does not mean understanding accents from a wide-array of cultures and societies, it means having respect for what those culture and societies represent. Most people respect her portrayal, I know I did, I just had a lot of trouble understanding her.

[Rainbowhigh23]

Posted: 7/21/12 at 5:52pm

Kelly2 - did you see Gloria Estefan at the show?

Gloria Estefan at Evita

[Kelly2]

Posted: 7/21/12 at 7:30pm

No! Was Gloria there last night? Wow!

[Rainbowhigh23]

Posted: 7/21/12 at 7:39pm

Looks like someone didn't hear the announcement - who do they think they are?!
Gloria Estefan at Evita

[The Scorpion]

Posted: 7/22/12 at 6:01am

That claim was quite arrogant. Being multi-cultural does not mean understanding accents from a wide-array of cultures and societies, it means having respect for what those culture and societies represent. Most people respect her portrayal, I know I did, I just had a lot of trouble understanding her.

Arrogant maybe, but I think I'm going to stick by it. All I can say is that, while I know this is a generalisation, there must be something to the fact that there were not nearly as many complaints over her accent in London. I've friends from Argentina too, and Elena doesn't sound any different; if anything she's a lot clearer.

Updated On: 7/22/12 at 06:01 AM

[The Scorpion]

Posted: 7/22/12 at 6:02am

[Double post] Updated On: 7/22/12 at 06:02 AM

[Wishing Only Wounds]

Posted: 7/22/12 at 3:10pm

Judging from your spelling of "generalisation," I'm going to assume it's safe to say you're from England? Maybe even only saw the show in London? Like I posted before, productions are usually tweaked depending on where it's playing, as they should be. It doesn't make one location superior to another; it's assimilation, for a lack of better terms.

The fact of the matter is, depending on where you are, accents are perceived differently. That's completely normal, and doesn't speak for a nation one way or another. I really don't know what there is left to say, as I can't fathom the logic behind your posts.

[broadwayrob]

Posted: 7/22/12 at 3:24pm

Glad you liked her. I hated to be so "judgy" about her performance,but going back over the OBCR I think my problem isn't directly with her, it's more with the show itself. I also think that my other problem is 9 times out of 10 I absolutely LOVE everything I see when I get the chance to go to NYC. Evita and Forever Tango being the only 2 things that I didn't simply adore when I saw them. But cheers to you for enjoying the show!

[Kelly2]

Posted: 7/22/12 at 3:47pm

Wishing, I understand shows have to be tweaked but her accent really was not an issue. My mother saw the show with me and she also had no issue understanding her. I think it may be an issue of people who travel outside the US, in some cases, vs. those who do not. Getting used to understanding accents from languages that are unfamiliar to you can be tricky.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 7/22/12 at 3:49pm

Why is judging down judgy-er than judging up?

[Kelly2]

Posted: 7/22/12 at 3:51pm

Henrike, I was just pointing out that I felt a lot of the reviews I read prior to seeing the show were unfairly negative and that some of the criticisms of Elena seemed completely unfounded to me, specifically that her voice was unable to handle the score and that her accent was distracting.

[broadwayrob]

Posted: 7/22/12 at 3:59pm

FWIW. Yes, I am from West Virginia. However, to assume that I, or other people from "middle America" have never heard or had to live around people with accents is an asinine thought process. I've lived in Boston and Jersey, while neither place is a hotbed of accents *maybe more so with Jersey*, I can tell you that in Jersey I lived in a mostly Indian section of town and had many wonderful dealings with those folks *no sarcasm*. Actually, same with Boston. *Yay for free Indian boiled peanuts from the guy at the local convenience store*

At the end of the day, it wasn't her accent that made me not able to understand her. It was her diction/enunciation, or lack thereof, that made it difficult for this overly "green" Evita viewer to hear what she was singing. Had I known the score, this might not have been as much of a problem.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 7/22/12 at 4:17pm

I know Kelly. I was just being glib and linguistically curious.

[Kelly2]

Posted: 7/22/12 at 4:29pm

Okay :-P My bad!

[EponineAmneris]

Posted: 7/22/12 at 4:40pm

I thought Elena was amazing, perfect and powerful in the role. Her accent made her portrayal even more authentic and real.

[justoldbill]

Posted: 7/22/12 at 6:32pm

"I'd like to buy a vowel, Pat- 'E'? The word is "JUDGMENTAL". (Heaven help us.)

Updated On: 7/22/12 at 06:32 PM

[The Scorpion]

Posted: 7/22/12 at 7:25pm

Judging from your spelling of "generalisation," I'm going to assume it's safe to say you're from England?

Well, using that spelling I could have been Canadian, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Australian or from quite a few other countries in the Commonwealth...

...But you're right, I'm English. :)

Where you're wrong is that no, I didn't only see the show in London; I've seen both productions. And I noticed the different audience reaction too, so I know that the complaints about her accent don't only come from this board; others around me were saying the same thing in the Marquis.

And the irony was that her accent was much clearer on Broadway than it was in London, at which time she wasn't fluent in English (she is now). Yet in London, where Elena was MUCH better received, these kind of complaints were relatively few at the Adelphi.

I'm at a loss as to how to explain this, really. The only thing I could come up with was the age-old thing (at the risk of sounding offensive/arrogant on an American-dominated board) of Americans' *general* lack of exposure to other countries (if, say, you consider how much is 'remade' for Americans in the entertainment industry, especially in film and television, and if you consider how few Americans get out of the US statistically). But, as I said, it's a generalisation and there are probably a lot of exceptions to this insularity. Especially in New York, which I always thought was pretty cosmopolitan.

Updated On: 7/22/12 at 07:25 PM

[lenstersf]

Posted: 7/22/12 at 7:36pm

Gloria Estefan came out of stage door after the matinee performance on Saturday, July 21, so I'm assuming she watched that performance.

[Wishing Only Wounds]

Posted: 7/22/12 at 8:06pm

I have no problem understanding Argentine accents, and know many people from Argentina, as I've previously stated. New York is extremely cosmopolitan and a huge melting pot; I'm also from New York, which I also mentioned. I've been out of the country many times and there are only a few accents I have trouble with, none of which have to do with Argentina or any South American country. Like I said, I feel she was trying to water down her accent, which, in my opinion, ultimately hurt the performance. As broadwayrob said, she lacked when it came to diction/enunciation. ...I still don't understand why this conversation turned into a cultural-awareness debate, but anyway.

I know it seems like I'm targeting you, Scorpion, but this isn't just to you, honestly.

This really has nothing to do with where the production is playing, to say such is not only arrogant, but ignorant. America has repeatedly welcomed foreign performers and has awarded them Tonys many times. For example, look at the extraordinary Josefina Scaglione, who is also from Argentina. Her performance was praised... and (as far as I know, was widely understood). There goes the Americans are sheltered theory! (Although I will agree Americans are somewhat sheltered, but this thread took that slippery slope to a whole new level).


However, I must address this: "(if, say, you consider how much is 'remade' for Americans in the entertainment industry, especially in film and television, and if you consider how few Americans get out of the US statistically)."

Live theatre aside, as we've covered how productions are tweaked for different audiences, regardless of where in the world, America remakes things because that is what it has always done. Hollywood is the film capital of the world, and America represents itself through Hollywood. Remakes are done to keep that image going. Although I don't particularly agree with it, if Hollywood didn't try to dominate other foreign media markets, one of the most notable American staples would have tough competition.

That said, we have foreign films... we have cinemas devoted to foreign films. We read subtitles. We have the Swedish version of 'The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo' and we have the (brilliant) Danish film 'In a Better World', just to name a couple.

[My Oh My]

Posted: 7/22/12 at 8:28pm

I keep reading this as "You guys are so JUICY."

[justoldbill]

Posted: 7/22/12 at 8:57pm

Don't take things too much to heart, Kelly2, even if there is no such word in the English language as "judgy". Perhaps it's just a cultural thing. According to some Canadian columnists, for instance, we brutal New Yorkers just don't understand some of their bad productions coming south of the border to make some ready cash, such as the recent attempt at JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTAR. If these shows are lacking in any way, it's our fault for not lowering our standards. Shame on us, I guess.

[The Scorpion]

Posted: 7/23/12 at 3:25am

I have no problem understanding Argentine accents, and know many people from Argentina, as I've previously stated. New York is extremely cosmopolitan and a huge melting pot; I'm also from New York, which I also mentioned. I've been out of the country many times and there are only a few accents I have trouble with, none of which have to do with Argentina or any South American country. Like I said, I feel she was trying to water down her accent, which, in my opinion, ultimately hurt the performance. As broadwayrob said, she lacked when it came to diction/enunciation. ...I still don't understand why this conversation turned into a cultural-awareness debate, but anyway.

@Wishing, l fully appreciate what you're trying to say, and I also agree that what I said could be taken as an arrogant stereotype.

But what is true for you isn't necessarily the case for others. There has to be a reason why the complaints about her accent are so endemic in the US when they weren't nearly as common in London, although they did exist at the very beginning, albeit in a much smaller amount. I'm just trying to work out why. And I think the whole notion that the US is culturally insular, though a completely stereotypical generalisation, does hold some truth to it. Not with people who come from or have lived a long time in New York, but it is a possibility re the many who may have travelled to New York to see the show from other states. So many people I heard at the Marquis kept saying 'Why couldn't they have found an American?', something I never heard at the Adelphi in London. While Broadway does welcome foreign performers, this has only really been the case in recent years. You only have to look at the original Evita to see that: American Equity refused to allow Elaine Paige and David Essex to go to New York to reprise their roles, even though that's what both the producers and Hal Prince originally wanted. Of course, if that production had happened today, there would be no question of them transferring, it would have been a done deal.

In short, I'm not saying *you* personally are culturally sheltered. But to hear so many complaints about an accent that really is not, in the grand scale of things, at ALL incomprehensible is quite bizarre. I'm trying to work out why. If the complaints are about her diction, which I think is fine and certainly a hell of a lot better than Patti LuPone's, then that's something else. But heretofore I keep reading complaints about her accent.





Updated On: 7/23/12 at 03:25 AM