why do peoples jaws move when they sing?- Page 2

[MusicPos2]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 3:50pm

Realize that if you're seeing trained singers doing that, they need new teachers (I'm talking about people like Kristin Chenoweth that might do it once in a blue moon). If someone is trained, they should not be doing that. The tongue can do it, but so can a lot of other muscles (there are over 100 muscles around the larynx). Realize that a lot of Broadway stars don't last long b/c they ruin their voices.

[M J R]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 4:04pm

Once again, MusicPos2, I think you are wrong.

A singer's jaw moving is NOT always a sign of tension. It can also be a secondary effect of the singer's breath and vibrato. If their jaw is dropped and extremely loose and relaxed, this can happen. I guess you think Cecila Bartoli and Joan Sutherland must have terrible technique then, huh?

This thread, combined with your opinions on keys and Sondheim makes me think that it's YOUR STUDENTS who need a new teacher.

Updated On: 7/28/04 at 04:04 PM

[MusicPos2]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 4:16pm

The jaw only needs to be open about one or two fingers. It shouldn't be so loose that it isn't controlable. And just b/c I don't like Sondheim, doesn't say anything. I have a degree in Music Ed, four years of private voice in college and considerable experience teaching voice and have learned from laryngologists and voice therapists, and once my recommendation is approved (written by the president-elect of NATS), I will be a member of NATS.

[M J R]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 4:33pm

Big f-ing deal. Do you think NATS is something special? Please. No one is impressed by you, OK?

1) A degree in music-ed and a big "four years of private voice" = go teach 4th grade music class.

2) Anyone who wants to pay the $72 can join NATS. It's a joke.

3) You CANNOT make such definitive statements about singing like you do when you have no idea what the specific circumstances are.

(Incidentally, I've had 16 years of formal voice training - I have a Bachelor in Voice, Masters degrees in Vocal Pedagogy and Performance from a major conservatory, and an Artist's Diploma. I WON the NATS competition three times.) I DON'T feel the need to have to MENTION THAT every single time I make a post as if I need justification (re your "....and I'm a voice teacher" at the end of everything you post).

[dramafreak13]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:02pm

woah, dude...calm down

[Sumofallthings]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:04pm

Colm Wilkinsons mouth is so confusing...while he is singing.

[M J R]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:06pm

I never make attacks on here, but something about this guy's posts force me to speak up. There's nothing worse than "posting with authority" when you have none.

[shesings]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:09pm

Let's all calm down. Obviously different teachers are going to have different methods. In my experience (numerous voice teachers, vocal therapy, musical theatre conservatory) I have been taught that generally excess bodily movement, whether it be the jaw or any other body part, is usually tension. That however is just my opinion.
And MJR - no matter how much experience you may have you are acting like you're about 10 years old

[M J R]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:10pm

thanks mom.

There's no need to tell me to calm down - I'm not upset. I just don't like seeing things like this happen, that's all.

[shesings]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:12pm

you're quite welcome sweetheart!

[dramafreak13]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:17pm

just to put in my two cents, my father is a professional opera singer and a voice teacher of 25 years (only saying that so you know his credentials) and he says that really the only way a jaw does that is if there is tension somewhere. he also says that in the opera world there is speculation about how good Cecila Bartoli's technique really is. and just so you know musicpos, i always agree with the stuff that you say about technique and such

Updated On: 7/28/04 at 07:17 PM

[M J R]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:23pm

YES - Yes, it can be from tension. I do not disagree. But my point is that it IS NOT ALWAYS from tension, that's all. And that there is no definitive-my-way-is-the-right-and-only-way to do it when it comes to vocal technique.

[shesings]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:27pm

MJR - that is the truth. I think that is where people run into problems in vocal training. A lot of times vocal coaches beleieve there is one specific right way to approach things. Thats just untrue. Everyone is unique, and many tactics are going to work differently on different people. Its so important to have a good coach who can help you find the right technique for you. Because every method isn't going to work for every singer. It just isn't.

[M J R]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:28pm

WORD

[MusicPos2]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:32pm

You're right about no definitive right way, but there are wrong ways, and it's very rare for it to be what you're talking about. I put that I'm a voice teacher in these types of posts, so that people reading them know that I'm not just some nobody giving advice on something so important. NATS unlike MENC and ACDA (Music Educators National Conference and American Choral Directors Association) require that your credentials are checked and your reference is from a current member. I'm glad that you've done all that, but if the jaw is moving there is tension. I think you're thinking of other areas of the body that from a distance can look the jaw is shaking (still very distracting, and not the best idea). One such person, from what I am told (I haven't seen videos, so I wouldn't know) is Joan Sutherland (sp?), who is one of the best coloraturas to ever live (although, if Kristin Chenoweth goes into opera, I think she might be able to capture that title).

[M J R]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:40pm

Allright, it is not rare....there are three types of vibrato: hammer, diaphragmatic, and laryngeal.

Laryngeal vibrato or throat vibrato is made by moving the larynx up and down, creating a variation of pitch. This vibrato is often slower and broader and with a larger difference between notes than the other types. If your jaw and tongue are very loose, the laryngeal vibrato may from time to time be accompanied by a quivering tongue, jaw, and sometimes head.
Distinct laryngeal vibrato is often used by crooners, jazz singers, and blues singers.

Additionally, there are literally hundreds of colouratura sopranos that would be in line before Chenoweth to take that title...

Updated On: 7/28/04 at 07:40 PM

[shesings]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:44pm

let the battle of the voice teachers commence!

[Amneris]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:48pm

musicpos's online personality reminds me a lot of my voice teacher whom I just left and the NATS keeps sending me emails telling me I need to press charges because he lied about being a member. =D Nothing against musicpos but stuff they post just sounds so familiar...

[MusicPos2]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:52pm

Chenoweth is an amazing coloratura. Laryngeal vibrato is the only type that's healthy, and diaphragmatic isn't a vibrato, it's a tremolo. Again the quivering is rare for it to be safe, and it is very distracting. If you see close, you will see the adam's apple (which is the thyroid cartiladge and "front" of the larynx) shaking, but that's only if it really sticks out (my neck is too fat to see the adam's apple).

[M J R]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 8:08pm

NO.

from "The Oxford Companion to Music" by Percy A. Scholes, London, Oxford University Press, 10th ed., 1970, page 1040:

"In the parlance of the vocalists and vocal teachers (when they show any knowledge of the existence of two distinct effects, which is not always) 'Tremolo' seems usually to mean the wavy, pitch - fluctuating effect, and 'Vibrato' the iteration of the one note."

Tremolo is an EFFECT - vibrato is not.

Vibrato is a pulsation produced in an instrumental or vocal tone by minute and rapid variations in pitch - produced by one of the three methods I posted earlier...

Updated On: 7/28/04 at 08:08 PM

[MusicPos2]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 9:05pm

Actually, the diaphragm can't produce a vibrato b/c vocally a vibrato is only a waiver in pitch, tremolo is in volume or the amplitude of the wave. In the flute, however, the diaphragm is used to create vibrato, but it's not like a vocal vibrato (often flautists have trouble singing b/c they try to use their diaphragm to create vibrato, which doesn't work). And I have said that my recommendation was written by the pres-elect. I am not a member now, but considering that last year the person that wrote my recommendation was the one that approved them, it's not really an issue. I have said this on job interviews and if someone were to take lessons with me, I would be telling them the same thing.

[nycdncr]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 9:28pm

can we talk about jaw tension? jessica simpson is a prime example of the visual getting in the way of a nice voice. when she sings she looks like she's trying to bite her own ear off. sometimes she looks like a donkey. not pretty.

[Amneris]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 9:34pm

You know what else I hate on singers? When their tongues are hanging out of their mouths at the end of songs... Idina does this and she never used to during RENT but, why do singers have to do these things?!!? WHY !!!!!

[shesings]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 9:35pm

I did notice some weird tongue action going on with Idina. Even my boyfriend who doesn't know a thing about music or singing noticed it. Could that also be a sign of tension? Or possibly it makes reaching some of those high notes easier for her?

[Paul LW]

Posted: 7/28/04 at 9:39pm

I have a question!!!

So, someone doesn't have a moving jaw---excellent, no "tension" there.

But sometimes, when someone sings, and their adams apple moves slightly during vibrato...like up and down, say, Josh Groban for isntance...is this a result of tension? Something else?

Curious.
Updated On: 7/28/04 at 09:39 PM