So... no threads about Israel and Gaza, eh? (2014)- Page 9

[HorseTears]

Posted: 8/11/14 at 2:47am

Tiny - what exactly are you suggesting? That the ADL and the Miami-Dade police are in league together in some grand conspiracy to cover up hate crimes against Jews in the greater Miami area? If so, could you explain to me what their motivation is? Since you've already declared what the motivation of the unidentified suspects is, I assume you can do the same for the ADL and the police.


Read the crime report again.
Can you provide a link to the crime report you're referencing?


Just because there are "spokespeople" for specific groups (of anyone), doesn't mean they're right (ADL) or represent a majority of said group.
What specific FACTS in the ADL's statement do you refute?



Look, I know you're not a journalist and that you're allowed to have an opinion on any news story out there, but you're not entitled to your own facts. Here's the difference between you and me Tiny. I NEVER said this was not a hate crime. I'm simply saying we should, at a minimum, wait until we have some evidence that it was. That is NOT the same thing as naively denying or ignoring anti-Semitism or the very real possibility that it COULD be a hate crime.

Could you, PJ or anyone else who sides with whatever your argument is actually answer my post with some factual information?











Updated On: 8/11/14 at 02:47 AM

[~~tiny3~~]

Posted: 8/11/14 at 4:45am

PJ, I give up. Your turn to explain some facts of life, some of the police force, political correctness, spokespeople. and the media to this naïf.

" you've already declared what the motivation of the unidentified suspects is, I assume you can do the same for the ADL and the police."

Yes, I can, and it ain't pretty

[HorseTears]

Posted: 8/11/14 at 5:23am

Tiny, I'm not psychic. Spell it out for me. I'm not being facetious. I'm clearly not consuming the same information that you are. So, rather than speaking in vague allusions to political correctness, just tell me what it is that I'm missing here. You don't have to be politically correct with me.

I still don't understand how someone can say with 100% certainty that this was a hate crime, but I'm willing to listen if you'll actually provide some information instead of telling me I'm naive and stonewalling me. If I'm a naif, educate me. I assume that whatever information you have can stand up to the scrutiny of a theatre messageboard.

[tazber]

Posted: 8/11/14 at 6:49am

Horse,

There is no proof (yet, possibly ever) that this was a hate crime.

But when anti-antisemitism is on the rise worldwide (there are tons of stats to support that, but I'm not going to search for them all for this post. Take my word for it or even do a cursory search for verification), Jews must assume that this FL murder was biased.

Less than 80 years ago Jews were almost wiped off the face of the Earth. Everyone in Germany said "it could never happen here" even as the Reich was systematically setting up the final solution.

When a rabbi (who was clearly identifiable as a Jew) is gunned down for no apparent reason, we have to consider it to be a hate crime. It wasn't a robbery. It wasn't a stray bullet. It was a targeted killing of a man with no motive.

(I wish they would find the shooter and be able to prove that it was random.)

When HAMAS and swastikas are graffitied on cars and synagogues we have to take notice.

These crimes don't need to be linked by a person to be equally alarming. It's the trend that must be acknowledged.

To ignore these would be like burying one's head in the sand until it's too late.

So until we have proof that this was not a hate crime, the only prudent thing for Jews to do is assume that it was. In the absence of a motive the principle of Occam's razor seems to be a sensible theory.

I don't mean for any of this to sound alarmist. I'm simply trying to explain that there is a deep-rooted sense of caution ingrained in the Jewish psyche as a result of thousands of years of persecution.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/11/14 at 8:06am

The only responsible action for the ADL as a responsible civic organization to take is to urge caution. I applaud them for being responsible.

However, their exhortation toward caution was insufficient to allay my conviction as an irresponsible citizen that if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it targets a synagogue twice in two weeks, once with graffiti and once with cold-blooded murder, then it's probably an anti-Semitic homicidal duck.

I have faith in Miami-Dade law enforcement.

[Jane2]

Posted: 8/11/14 at 8:43am

"I still don't understand how someone can say with 100% certainty that this was a hate crime,"

Really? So are you saying the only way we can say with 100% certainty it was a hate crime is if the killer left a note saying "this was a hate crime? " Oh wait, then we wouldn't know with 100% certainty that the killer was the one who wrote the note.

Why do I keep reading this thread?

Updated On: 8/11/14 at 08:43 AM

[~~tiny3~~]

Posted: 8/11/14 at 9:02am

Look Jane, he will never "get" "it". He hasn't lived long enough yet,

but perhaps he'd like to put his 2 cents in on the
Fergesun, Missouri RIOTS/VANDALism, murder of teen boy. by a cop/ etc.

The MSM is all over it already - Sharpton and his minions should be there any minute.

Cold blooded murder of a Rabbi in front of his family on Shabbos just doesn't get the ratings..Maybe if the Hassidim ripped their community down and set fires, the story would be covered/ Nah- wouldn't be good for the image . (penalty when the perpetrators get caught): shoving as many matza balls down their throats until they choke to death,

[Jane2]

Posted: 8/11/14 at 9:10am

tiny, maybe he doesn't "want" to get it, if you get my drift.

By his logic, I guess NO killing can be deemed with 100% certainty a hate crime. We just don't know if the killer is a hater or just exercising his second amendment "right."

[Jane2]

Posted: 8/11/14 at 9:23am

"Could you, PJ or anyone else who sides with whatever your argument is actually answer my post with some factual information?"

okey dokey, I don't have to get up and shower yet.

Many killings are labeled "hate crimes" when they are committed against blacks, gays, latinos, you name a group. Now horse - how do we know with 100% certainty that they were hate crimes?

YOU answer the question.

eta - You mean you don't know what tiny, PJ, my, and others' argument is? At this stage of the game, you don't know what you're arguing against? Sounds like your driveway doesn't go to the curb either.

Updated On: 8/11/14 at 09:23 AM

[HorseTears]

Posted: 8/11/14 at 5:46pm

Look, I'm a member of a half-dozen minority groups. I understand distrust of law enforcement when you are a member of a minority community - especially in the South. One might argue that wealthy areas of Miami aren't exactly "the South" in that respect, but it is still Florida, which does not have a shining human rights record in general. My problem is not with legitimate concerns of the Jewish community, but with engaging in conjecture and supposition when discussing the specifics of a very serious crime. Is this how you guys would operate on a jury? If so, for your fellow citizens' sake, I certainly hope you don't get jury duty.

The graffiti incidents happened two weeks prior to this man's killing. They didn't happen at the synagog he was visiting. Does that mean they aren't connected? NO. But, it also doesn't mean that they are. Wanting to know the truth about this man's senseless killing also does not mean that one is discounting the shocking and abhorrent acts of verified anti-Semitism flaring up in the US and Europe. Anti-Semitism is real and it is not just made up solely of isolated incidents. I get that. And I get how dangerous it is to ignore these incidents or to minimize the potential for escalation.

If you guys had explained from the beginning that you had a different definition of "hate crime" than the one that is established by federal and state law enforcement, you would have saved us all a great deal of time. Basically, what you guys are saying is that because of the long persecution of the Jewish people and because of recent alarming reports of anti-Semitic behavior in the US and Europe, any crime committed against a Jewish person should be considered a hate crime, regardless of the motivations of the perpetrator(s). I mean, that's basically it, right?

Updated On: 8/11/14 at 05:46 PM