10 Commandments displayed in public?

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 3/2/05 at 6:36pm

Corollating with the current court hearings, do you guys think it's okay for the Tem Commandments to be displayed in public and in public/government buildings? Does it really infringe on the separation of church and state? Discuss!

I say yes, it does infringe. However, old architecture featuring the commandments and various inferences should be allowed. However, blatant posters in schools, courthouses, libraries, etc. outlining the 10 Commandments should be removed, unless they are Christian offiliated. I think the Government needs to work at removing most blatant religious inferences from public buildings - or else, the separation of church and state is worthless. Well, with this current administration, that notion came into play 4 years ago. Anyway, discuss.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 3/2/05 at 6:40pm

You and all the other liberals have a misconception of what was meant by separation of church and state. The U.S. was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. Are you looking to take "In God We Trust" off the money as well?

[Jess1483]

Posted: 3/2/05 at 6:46pm

First of all, there are some who would argue that there is no such thing as "Judeo-Christian principles."

That said, I do have to agree with Goth (as one of "those liberals" who actually, for the record, knows exactly what "separation of church and state" means--please don't over-generalize) on the often-misinterpreted phrase of "separation of church and state." First of all, not in the constitution at all. Second of all, people use it to say that there should be absolutely no interwieving of the two, whereas the intent of the establishment clause was to restrict the government from either promoting or restricting the establishment of any religious institution. Now, you could argue (as I probably would) that the displaying of the 10 commandments does promote one religion over another (or several over several others if you want to be more accurate) then that's one argument. But you need to be more explicit about why you believe it's a violation of the establishment clause, rather than a violation of the principle of "the separation of church and state."

Edited because I wanted to rephrase something

Updated On: 3/2/05 at 06:46 PM

[Unknown User]

Posted: 3/2/05 at 7:00pm

"The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins. From Treasury Department records, it appears that the first such appeal came in a letter dated November 13, 1861." - from the United States Treasury official site.

I would certainly not mind that motto being removed, as it has no purpose - and certainly doesn't speak for the plurality of this country.

As to the 'principles' that this country was founded on, they included (among other things) the subjugation of women, and the domination of minority races - both of which were justified by the bible. What existed a couple of centuries ago shouldn't constrain where we can be today. We claim to be a country founded on the principle of individual liberty, and yet there are those who immediately want to place parameters on those choices based on their own religious convictions.

I will state once again, and will continue to do so, that having a foundation of religion in your life is a CHOICE, and does not grant anyone the right to determine the actions of others if those actions don't interfer with anyone's individual liberty. Eventually, that will be made clear - I just wish it were sooner than later.

[ashbash6819]

Posted: 3/2/05 at 8:21pm

while i dont think that our country was founded on Christian-Judeo priciples(anyone who has studied our founding fathers would know that) i dont think it is nessesarily wrong to display the ten commandment, especially on a historical building. In schools, i dont think they should shove religion in the kids faces but i do with that they would teach the belief in Creation(intelligent design) as a possiblity (of how the world came to be) in science classes just as they teach evolution as a possibility.

srry thats a little off topic from the original question

[Rose_MacShane]

Posted: 3/2/05 at 8:26pm

I personally don't see the point of the Ten Commandments monuments. There's one downtown near the Capitol Building, and the last time I was down there all it was doing was serving as a gathering place for homeless guys.

[Feodor Sverdlov]

Posted: 3/2/05 at 8:32pm

I would certainly not mind that motto being removed, as it has no purpose - and certainly doesn't speak for the plurality of this country.


Actually, it does. Less than 7% of the population of The United States doesn't believe in God. So, about 93% of Americans DO trust in God.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 3/2/05 at 8:33pm

"while i dont think that our country was founded on Christian-Judeo priciples(anyone who has studied our founding fathers would know that)"

What do you think they were patterned on?

We can trace elected officials back to the Jews after they came out of the Egyptian captivity (Jewish Tanakh; Christian Old Testament).

[Elphaba]

Posted: 3/2/05 at 10:03pm

NO, NO, NO........

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 3/2/05 at 10:37pm

I don't think God should be mentioned on any government property. It's not just to those who are atheist or do not acknowledge their deity as "God".

It's highly smug and selfish of those of you who think that JUST BECAUSE a majority of Americans believe something means it should be law of the land for ALL Americans to endure. On matters of civil liberties, sometimes the majority is flat out WRONG.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 3/3/05 at 12:04am

I actually write "NO WE DON'T" under all the "In God We Trust"s on all my bills. It takes less time because the economy's "so good" that I have many fewer bills. Sure, it's a federal offense, but as the lord jesus christ once said, frig em if they can't take a joke.

I believe the basic tenets of ALL religions need to be displayed on public land, including but not limited to The Koran, Scientology, The Book of Mormon, The Torah, and The Book of Judyism by Judy Tenuta.

[B.B. Wolf]

Posted: 3/3/05 at 12:27am

"As to the 'principles' that this country was founded on, they included (among other things) the subjugation of women, and the domination of minority races - both of which were justified by the bible."

Neither are justified in the bible. They were elements of biblical culture that the subjugators and dominators USED as justification for their actions. Big difference. They were appropriating cultural norms and passing them off as elements of Christianity to justify their actions.
Every great work of genius, the bible included, can be twisted to suit the uses of such people. Don't discount the source material because of forced interpretations. Look what people are saying about the Koran these days.

That being said, I agree with every thing else dgrant said.

[B.B. Wolf]

Posted: 3/3/05 at 1:25am

Wierd. This site is doing some funky stuff to my posts.....

[Unknown User]

Posted: 3/3/05 at 2:27am

One item to begin - B.B., you are absolutely correct, and it was simply my unfortunate wording that misspoke my thought. What I meant was that the bible was USED to justify those actions - which, of course, doesn't mean that the bible itself justifies them. Thanks for calling attention to the error.

Now, about that wonderful percentage thrown out there about those who believe in god. First of all, it would be helpful to know the source and parameters of any poll sited. As that information was not given, I did my own searching, and have come up with the best information I could find available.

The closest I could find was actually a Fox News poll, which is ironic to say the least. They report 92% of Americans claim a belief in a 'god' - although no mention is made of which or whoose 'god' this is. Interestingly, in that same poll, 34% also said they believe in ghosts and UFOs, and 29% said they believe in astrology. Since many people are responding affirmatively that they believe in all these things, I wonder what belief it is, exactly, that is being represented.

Also in that same poll, only 37% of the respondents claim to attend church at least once a week. Ignoring for a moment the concept that some of those people might not be attending out of faith driven need, but rather a sense of societal or familial obligation, the fact is that 1/3 of a population is a lot less impactful than almost the entirety of that said population.

In other words, while it may be very simple to say 'I believe in a god', it is entirely a different matter to claim that that belief system actually does inform how you live your life. And it is certainly an interesting step to then claim the right to dictate how others should live their lives, or the conditions under which the society as a whole should operate.

Ultimately, in a society that is supposed to be based on the concept of individual liberty, it shouldn't matter who or how many want to claim that particular foundation for their lives. What this society is supposed to be about is the discovery of that which we all share inately, and the protection of our right to pursue our lives as they don't interfere with other's right to do the same.

Religion is a man-made artifice, created in response to questions that we all face. While it may be convenient for those who CHOOSE to accept those tenets to claim that they are really a product of their god, there is no empirical evidence that can be sighted to back it up. What we have is what we know that can be proven - and great strides have and continue to be made in that direction. I personally refuse to allow my life to be determined, controlled or in any way limited by those who have no right to do so.

[B.B. Wolf]

Posted: 3/3/05 at 2:43am

Beautifully said, dgrant. *applauds*

My greatest heartache is that people use words written to teach us all about acceptance, love and understanding. And turn them into ammunition. They become simply more criteria to judge others by. Funny and sad, since that is completely antithetical to the entire message of the bible.

I would also qualify one thing dgrant said in the end paragraph:
Religion is a man-made artifice, created in response to fear of relinquishing control. BUT, faith is an acknowledgment, given in response to overwhelming evidence that someone else IS in control.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 3/3/05 at 2:55am

B.B. - your statement "the overwhelming evidence that someone else IS in control" intrigues me. What are you referring to? Most who make such statements are referencing the 'order' of the universe around them that they perceive, but I don't want to assume that's what you mean.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 3/3/05 at 2:56am

I feel that if the Supreme Court declares their presence to be unconstitutional, then they should take them down and I won't protest. Posters of the 10 Commandments hung in these places just seems tacky to begin with, I don't think anyone should support that.

I don't think they're doing anyone any harm. If you don't believe in them, just ignore them. Having them there doesn't have an impact on the governmental business that goes on within the buildings. Would you suggest taking Bibles and other religious books out of the public and school libraries?

As for instances where the 10 Commandments are permanently part of the architecture or statues, I look at the issue differently. The influence of the 10 Commandments is a part of our country's history. Getting rid of that would be like white-outing the original copy of the U.S. Constitution to take out all the parts that we don't think work in today's society, or are embarrassed to admit to. The Constitution included statements about counting slaves as 3/5 of a person for taxing and representation purposes based on state population. Even though that sounds horrible, it's part of history, you can't forget about it or make it go away. Otherwise, our society is no better than the one in 1984, "fixing" history to get rid of things that don't work with our current world view.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 3/3/05 at 3:02am

Orange - the thing is, we DID recognize (eventually) the harm and wrong that was inherrent in parts of the constitution, and then took steps to correct those errors.

I would never advocate removal of any book from a library, as there is something to be learned from everything. However, in a structure that is intended to represent our social order of conduct - such as a courthouse - I feel that the display of the ten commandments does invoke a supposed belief in those principles. Do I believe it is wrong to murder? Of course. But do I want something put in front of me or others that says anything about a god that not everyone in society accepts? No.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 3/3/05 at 3:18am

The Constitution was corrected to reflect that, but I mean actually changing the original copy of the Constitution down in the National Archives. You wouldn't do that because it was still written down then and it's part of history. I actually had a textbook in high school with the entire Constitution. Parts that were changed over the years had a single line drawn through them to reflect that they were no longer part of the Constitution, but they were in it at one point.

Taking down statues and buildings to take out the 10 Commandments is what I have a problem with. It's history, and it's art, and destroying these is what is wrong.

Updated On: 3/3/05 at 03:18 AM

[son_of_a_gunn_25]

Posted: 3/3/05 at 3:51am

My problem is why are churches fighting to add these things when it costs so much to fight? We are already the wealthiest nation in the world. Couldn't that money fighting for this be put to better use feeding the poor, helping the sick, educating the next generation? I don't care if you are religious or not, this argument needs to be addressed AFTER we take care of more pressing problems in the world. Maybe I am just an idealist, but I ain't gonna sit around paying some lawyer some crazy amount of money for this when my money can go to help those who are in need. (Now look you've brought out my Midwesternisms! Dithering Ding Ding Damn!)

[feinstein9]

Posted: 3/3/05 at 8:41am

son, is that the mom from flowers in the attic?

[JailyardGuy]

Posted: 3/3/05 at 9:22am

No, I believe Corinne was played by Victoria Tennant. (And I think you meant the *grandmother*, Olivia, who was played by Louise Fletcher)

I adore that movie, but not nearly as much as the book(s). You a VC Andrews fan? :)

[Unknown User]

Posted: 3/3/05 at 9:25am

Son's icon is Bette Davis, I believe.

[Rose_MacShane]

Posted: 3/3/05 at 10:58am

DGrant, I love you.

[JailyardGuy]

Posted: 3/3/05 at 11:02am

I think we all need to take deep breaths and read some Ayn Rand. :)