Posted: 6/20/17 at 7:04pm
qolbinau, you were wrong about Bernie Sanders, and you're wrong about this issue. The more you write, Carlos is right, the more you bury yourself.
Posted: 6/20/17 at 7:09pm
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Posted: 6/20/17 at 7:09pm
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Posted: 6/21/17 at 12:30am
"my views are shared by intellectual atheist elites across the world. We are ahead of our time - the public has not been able to catch up to these views yet."
We are all too well aware of your bona fides. Good luck in your ministry.
Posted: 6/21/17 at 12:33am
christopher hitchens fell out of favor with the left, but he was dead right about everything re: religion. a criticism of his that is oft missed by apologists is that religion cultivates a need for a master and commander, basically paving the way for dictators. which is exactly what happened in the last election. it's clear that trump doesn't know adam from eve or genesis from corinthians, but the evangelicals didn't care. he flat out reneges on his promises and they don't care. it's easy as pie to find artwork depicting him as an religious icon.
Posted: 6/21/17 at 1:00am
I remain a fan of Hitchens and an avowed atheist. But, I'm neither a Hitchens d*ck-worshiper nor dogmatic in my refutation of the beliefs of others. We have little choice but give others time to evolve from their present truth to the realm of rationale thought. I don't see the immediate benefits of beating them over the head with the message. Carry on as you wish though.
Posted: 6/21/17 at 7:12am
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Posted: 6/21/17 at 7:29am
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Posted: 6/21/17 at 8:34am
Refreshing? I happens ALL THE TIME.
Do you actually know any Muslims? Judging from the ignorance you display in this thread my guess would be no.
Posted: 6/21/17 at 9:05am
I actually know quite a few Muslims and am shocked about how alienated from the world they are.
There is a very important point that some get to experience and these are mostly people who feel victimized by Islam, for example gay people or other people who feel their freedom is taken away. That point is: Realizing that islam is not your identity. That is very hard and scary for some, because they grew up by the idea that it is. I have learned that only when people are forced to understand this by certain life experiences, they will learn who they are. Human.
Like I have said before: teaching our children this (parents and schools) is the most important thing.
Edit: Therefore you can not BE Muslim. You can DO Muslim.
Updated On: 6/21/17 at 09:05 AM
Posted: 6/21/17 at 9:07am
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Posted: 6/21/17 at 9:19am
"Ok I think the word "ignorant" needs to be removed from the face of this earth along with religion - do you know how stupid it looks to throw out these buzzwords with no thought?"
Ha! Unfortunately I have read your posts. You should take your own advice.
Posted: 6/21/17 at 9:30am
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Updated On: 12/19/19 at 09:30 AM
Posted: 6/21/17 at 9:43am
Ignorance is a buzzword? Since when? Is it a buzzword like throwing out Sam Harris' name? As if people who disagree with you couldn't possibly be smart enough to know who Sam Harris is?
My point is your post that I responded to indicated that it was unusual for Muslims to speak out against harm caused by their religion.
It is NOT unusual and actually happens quite frequently. You seem to be unaware of this. Hence the use of the word ignorant. Wilfully ignorant is probably more accurate.
Updated On: 6/21/17 at 09:43 AM
Posted: 6/21/17 at 11:04am
Erik, I agree with you that it's not at all unusual for Muslims in the U.S. to critique their own religion. I've heard many such criticisms and calls for reform among my classmates, students, and colleagues.
However, I suspect that this is not happening nearly so much in those majority-Muslim countries where women, LGBT people, and members of religious minorities are most in peril.
Posted: 6/21/17 at 11:15am
ErikJ972 said: " Wilfully ignorant is probably more accurate."
No, he's just an aspiring member of the atheist elite intelligentsia and is shaking his head over the fact that the overwhelming majority of the world's population isn't as enlightened as he is.
Posted: 6/21/17 at 2:01pm
Of course he also fails to mention the man in London who purposefully attacked Muslims leaving a mosque a few days ago, since that doesn't fit his strict narrative.
Posted: 6/21/17 at 2:12pm
Kad said: "ErikJ972 said: " Wilfully ignorant is probably more accurate."
No, he's just an aspiring member of the atheist elite intelligentsia and is shaking his head over the fact that the overwhelming majority of the world's population isn't as enlightened as he is.
Perfect.
Posted: 6/21/17 at 2:14pm
Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that qolbinau and Dave19 are - for themselves - a match made in heaven. Although I guess heaven doesn't exist. But the two of them are like a special place in hell. Although I guess hell doesn't exist. How lucky.
Posted: 6/21/17 at 4:48pm
Religion is a chosen association, not an innate characteristic, so it is entirely right to use religion as a factor on which to judge an individual - one among many, to be sure. I regard the choice to be Muslim as very similar to the choice to be a Republican. There's plenty of room for wonderful people in each group, but I have to put it in the negative column rather than the positive. On balance, both Islam and Republicanism stand in the way of progress and freedom in the world.
That's nothing special about Islam, though. I could switch out Islam for Mormonism, Catholicism, or any of several other benighted philosophies and the last paragraph would be equally true.
Posted: 6/21/17 at 5:28pm
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Posted: 6/21/17 at 5:28pm
In many households and/or extended families (or tribes), religion is not a chosen association, at least not for children in those contexts who are treated as wards of their parents/elders. To me, that's the first and most pernicious level of indoctrination. Furthermore, as recently as 30 years ago in the Old South inter-faith marriages were frowned upon. Further back, I vividly recall family members whose parents forbade them from marrying Free Will Baptists because we were Pentecostal Holiness communionists, talking about splitting hairs. And I'm embarrassed to admit that I have a young 20-something cousin who was thrown out by her parents at 18 years old after coming out as a lesbian and refusing to repent of her sinful lifestyle. I and several other family members gave her shelter for a spell and helped her get on her feet. She recently became the first family member to tie the knot with a member of the same sex. Her parents were not in attendance.
I write all this to suggest that, for some still, religion is a yoke that they can't break free of until they're emancipated from their parents. Until then, they have little choice in the matter.
Posted: 6/21/17 at 7:18pm
javero said: "I write all this to suggest that, for some still, religion is a yoke that they can't break free of until they're emancipated from their parents. Until then, they have little choice in the matter."
This is true, of course, so I'll be more precise: For adults in relatively free countries, religion is entirely a choice. I know this as an intimate fact, having turned away from the darkness of Catholicism long ago.
Posted: 6/21/17 at 7:24pm
javero said: "I write all this to suggest that, for some still, religion is a yoke that they can't break free of until they're emancipated from their parents. Until then, they have little choice in the matter."
I agree. And they grow up thinking religion is their identity, which per definition is radical, as it creates dangerous individuals because they lose touch with reality. All the left lemmings in this discussion who do not understand that are polluting society too and are completely unaware of the effects.
The fact that we and Qolbinau get so much world alienated reactions here maybe shows that the world deserves to be a mess and does not deserve any better.
Let gays be killed, keep on indoctrinating kids and dance in circles and be happy.
Updated On: 6/21/17 at 07:24 PM
Posted: 6/21/17 at 11:32pm
wonderfulwizard11 said: "Of course he also fails to mention the man in London who purposefully attacked Muslims leaving a mosque a few days ago, since that doesn't fit his strict narrative.
"
it fits the narrative just fine--the "people of the book" are going to kill each other, and everyone else in between. you might find some who protest this increasingly shrill, but it's in part because we think it's utter madness that we're killing each other literally over 2000 year old fairy tales from the desert.
and before someone says it... yes, racism is going to exist anyway no matter what we do, but religion is always tinder to the fire precisely because it makes contentious claims that are not open to testing. we are all from africa, we are one species. no matter how progressively you outline religion, all of them, to a certain degree, say that is not true, that god(s) made a special deal with some people and screw all the rest. since god never ever ever appears and says, "do it this way," it's left to his conveniently self-appointed representatives to act in his name, and oddly, their statements are always in their own self-interests. aren't liberals supposed to criticize racism? it's racist to say the creator of the universe made a special deal with only people from the middle east and europe, and screw all of us from asia, africa, the amercas... well, the entire rest of the world. enough.
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