A Bright Shining Lie

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 9/16/24 at 6:28pm

Perhaps the Debates/Election threads are not the place to have a conversation about Vietnam... so I'll start a new thread for any relevant discourse.

As we approach the upcoming 50th anniversary of the war's end, I'm curious to hear people's thoughts. I was under the impression that thinking has moved on from the 1960s and 1970s where people like Muhammad Ali and Jane Fonda were publicly hated. I thought the general consensus nowadays is that the war was a colossal mistake, a waste of military effort and human life. Am I wrong?

I was not alive at the time, so can not fully comprehend events as they happened. I guess. For others like me, what has been your source of information? For me, mostly movies, books, and television documentaries. I have very little association with anybody directly involved.

Recommended:

 

"A Bright Shining Lie", by Neil Sheehan - Pultizer Prize winner

‘Superb. If you ever read just one history of the Vietnam war, read and admire and celebrate this one.’John Le Carré

In A Bright Shining Lie, Neil Sheehan peels back the mythology of the Vietnam War to expose its full horror, tragedy and waste. He centres his account on one man: US Lieutenant Colonel John Paul Vann, who tried to persuade Pentagon and public alike that the conflict was being murderously bungled by American forces and their South Vietnamese allies. Sixteen years in the writing, A Bright Shining Lie gives an unflinching account of how the war was waged: from events that have gone down in infamy, such as the Battle of Ap Bac and the Tet Offensive, to the countless, nameless atrocities against Vietnamese villagers throughout the longest war in American history. Sheehan, who died in 2021, collaborated with The Folio Society to create this two-volume edition, putting forward the award-winning war journalist George Packer to write a new introduction. A winner of the Pulitzer Prize, National Book Award and Robert F. Kennedy Book Award, this is among the few essential works on a conflict that divided America and continues to haunt its conscience.

 

[Pauly3]

Posted: 9/16/24 at 7:54pm

It's frustrating to hold an opinion and be (absurdly) told by others who disagree with you that 1) you're wrong, 2) you're stupid and 3) shown the door with the sentiment implying - or categorically stating - you aren't welcome to post here.  Isn't it?

You used the term discourse, but based on your history just with me I don't think you have an appreciation for what discourse really is.  You like to have conversations, and you like to ask questions.  But you don't hear the answers, unless the answers agree with you.  Many here, on your side of the political aisle, have this in common with you.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 9/16/24 at 8:17pm

Frustrating indeed.

I believe I at least considered your arguments in favor of Trump. Even if I remained unconvinced. I don’t recall ever treating you like dirt or telling you that nobody would miss you. I actually like reading contrasting viewpoints, they perhaps might give me some vague understanding of the MAGA mindset.

Anyway, any thoughts on the Vietnam War, Pauly?

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 9/16/24 at 8:26pm

Kent State Massacre, May 4th 1970.

Opposing voices should never be silenced.

[Pauly3]

Posted: 9/16/24 at 8:51pm

In regard to Trump specifically, I don't think you are being genuine when you say you like reading contrasting viewpoints.  I have no real idea of what you mean by "MAGA mindset", other than you perceive it to be something awful.  Referring to it here now, in response to me, is more disingenuous nonsense.  It's either disingenuous, or you have a comprehension problem.  There is nothing awful about defending against the killing of Trump nor is there something awful about voting for one of only two candidates each of whom I dislike and would much prefer neither be on the ballot.

I know little about the Vietnam War and have not developed strong opinions despite my ignorance.  Too many people make that mistake, too often of too many topics.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 9/16/24 at 9:05pm

You are an anti-choice cisgender man… correct?

What experience do you have in giving birth?

Ignorance didn’t seem to stop you forming an opinion on that one…

Updated On: 9/16/24 at 09:05 PM

[Pauly3]

Posted: 9/16/24 at 9:26pm

Describing me as "anti-choice" is more disingenuous garbage.  And the "you've never given birth, therefore you're ignorant" implication is just blatantly ridiculous.  How are you not embarrassed by that comment?  Or am I giving you too much credit in suggesting you might be embarrassed?

That last question was rhetorical.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 9/16/24 at 9:50pm

This is a thread about Vietnam.

[South Florida]

Posted: 9/16/24 at 11:32pm

JLZ is correct about this war. I was alive and subsequently taught a seminar course on the war. Approximately 60,000 dead Americans who were sent on a mission promulgated by the irrational fear of global communism.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 9/17/24 at 1:10pm

Thanks, SF!

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 10/3/24 at 5:00pm

Got an e-mail from Jane Fonda via the DNC today. She endorses Kamala, of course, but the interesting part is that Kamala obviously values this enough to send it out as a fundraiser.

Has Jane Fonda been redeemed in the eyes of Middle Americuh?