Any thoughts about ENDA?- Page 2

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 11:24am

Aren't you talking about John Travolta?

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 11:25am

Oh, I have lots of thoughts on various Ednas.

That Edna St. Vincent Millay was a ranging c*nt. And a legislation-derailing trannie!

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 11:26am

And lets not even talk about that firecrotch Edna Garrett...

[artscallion]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 11:47am

"Throughout American history, civil rights have been achieved in incremental steps. The landmark Civil Rights Act of 1964, for example, barred race discrimination in public accommodations, an enormous step forward at the time. It wasn’t until the next year that Congress protected voting rights in a separate bill."

My problem with this analogy is that racial equality progress has been incremental by issue, not by who was covered by it. It would be more analogous if certain, "less acceptable" races, or maybe darker skinned African Americans were excluded from the progress and were left to catch up on their own.

Yes, it's progress. But it doesn't feel very noble to me. Personally, I would have felt better if we had sacrificed the small advance towards what's right for the sake of being right ourselves. I think that would have been a better example to set for our oppressors.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 11:56am

My hope is that because so many people are ignorant on the subject and think that transgender and sexual orientation are the same thing, many trangendered people will benefit from this regardless.

And, transgendered people are protected by ENDA regarding their sexual orientation. If the ignorant offender makes gay slurs in their abuse, that can certainly be fought if ENDA passes.

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 12:04pm

"My hope is that because so many people are ignorant on the subject and think that transgender and sexual orientation are the same thing, many trangendered people will benefit from this regardless."

I love you...but that is an utterly unrealistic hope. We aren't dealing with the way someone's mind works. We're dealing with the intricacies of employment law. Under this law, no trans person would have an avenue to protect their employment. Even IF gay slurs are being used against them, if they are legally defined as a man (who is trans and claims to be a lesbian because she is attracted to another woman), then I can see a court saying the claim has no basis.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 12:17pm

My hope is that as many judges or juries would still rule in favor of the victim should sexual orientation slurs be used at all. Even if the lawyer proves that the person isn't really a lesbian because she was born a male---this law protects straight people, too and perceived orientation.

But, I absolutely agree that protections for gender identity need to be put into the law to protect the T in LGBT. It's a shame that our current protection on gender isn't enough.

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 12:26pm

I'm not sure how much wiggle room there will be for judges in regards to ENDA.

While I celebrate the step forward for us gay folk, I mourn the fact that it come at the expense of our trans friends.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 12:27pm

Personally, I would have felt better if we had sacrificed the small advance towards what's right for the sake of being right ourselves. I think that would have been a better example to set for our oppressors.

We disagree. We disagree fundamentally. That's exactly the kind of thinking that I think prolongs perpetual victim status.

Small advances are only small to little minds. To big minds, small advances are HUGE, whether in terms of civil rights, medical science or personal growth.

And Robbie--I think I know what Jrby means: You are speaking legally and he is speaking culturally. A case may lose in court but the end result is that the needle is nudged a little closer toward full equality, the same way that every time a single human being comes out the closet, all of society is opened up exponentially.

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 12:34pm

First of all, I love that you've endowed yourself with a big mind. Something's gotta be big I guess!

I knew jerby was talking culturally. But, in many ways, I don't give a SH*T what the culture thinks. I do, however, care a great deal on how people are treated under the law. I think that is far more important.

There will always be people who hate me cause I'm gay, or cause you're Jewish or cause jerby is from Texas. Whatever. It's far more important to be treated fairly under the law.

I guess I believe that the best chance the trans community had of being protected under the law was with the backing of the larger gay community. I just hope that the mainstream gay lobbying groups (ugh, ugh and more ugh) don't lose site of the fact that a portion of our community has been left out of this advancement.

And I really don't hold much hope that the mainstream will pick up the fight. At all.

[artscallion]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 12:44pm

I'll settle for having the little mind and the giant schlong and massive pendulous balls. Have fun thinking!

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 12:46pm

I'm just one person, but I will never forget our transgendered brothers and sisters. So, as loud as I can be in my life, I will be loud for gay and transgendered people alike.

Wait--that doesn't sound right.

Or doeeesss it?

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 12:51pm

No one doubts that, jerby. But it's going to take you and many others like you to keep pressure on those mainstream gay lobbying groups (ugh, ugh and more ugh) to do the right thing.

I recognize the step forward. But I also recognize that the right thing was not done this time...at least as far as I'm concerned.

[WindyCityActor]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 1:39pm

More Details Obtained About ENDA Poll Commissioned by Human Rights Campaign

http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid50347.asp

The poll, a random survey of 514 LGBT Americans conducted by Knowledge Networks, Inc., of Menlo Park, Ca., asked participants two questions concerning ENDA. The first asked which of the following three statements was closest to reflecting their views:

A. National gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender civil rights organizations should oppose this proposal because it excludes transgender people.

B. National gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender civil rights organizations should support this proposal because it helps gay, lesbian, and bisexual workers and is a step toward transgender employment rights.

C. National gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender civil rights organizations should adopt a neutral stance for this proposal because while it helps gay, lesbians, and bisexual workers, it also excludes transgender people.

Of those surveyed, 67.7% agreed with statement B, while 15.8% agreed with statement A, 12.8% agreed with statement C, and 3.6% did not answer.

The second question asked people the following: "This proposal would make it illegal to fire gay, lesbian, or bisexual workers because of their sexual orientation. This proposal does NOT include people who are transgender. Would you favor or oppose this proposal?"

In response, 59.1% said they favored the proposal and felt strongly about it, 15.4% said they favored it but did not feel strongly about it, 15.1% opposed it and felt strongly about it, 8.8% opposed it but did not feel strongly about it, and 1.6% did not answer.

Of the 514 people the poll surveyed, 246 respondents identified as male, 262 identified as female, five identified as female-to-male transgender, and one person identified as male-to-female transgender. The poll was conducted between October 2-5. The margin of error was +/- 4.3 percentage points at a 95% confidence level.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 1:59pm

I too will never forget our transgendered brothers and sisters, but I will also remember that many of the loudest of them wanted this bill to fail, and worked hard to achieve that goal.

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 2:06pm

And why shouldn't they want it to fail? They were thrown under the bus. They thought they had place at the table. But they didn't. And if I'm pissed off about it, I can just imagine how they feel.

Pal Joey may have a big mind...but what is it doing in such a small person?

[broadwaytourist]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 2:12pm

What the transgendered population is going to need is straight allies. The HRC let them down. I am a married straight Southern woman, excited about the advancement of civil rights in any flavor, but I just am not hopeful for the trans community. I feel this has marginalized them even in their own place in the world. I am thrilled that gay folks may have the same protections in the work world that I do, but compassion and empathy should be the watchwords of the day rather than division, name calling, and abandonment.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 2:13pm

And why does everyone of your posts include a personal message to me, written in Jungle Red?

You haven't acted this viciously toward me since Brokeback Mountain.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 2:16pm

That's it, BroadwayTourist--you tell RobbieJ to stop calling me names!

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 2:20pm

Because you seem to have this unrestrainable desire to say something rotten! It's like bitchy tourettes!!

You go a couple of posts...you even begin a post with something nice and supportive and BAM! You just can't help yourself. You have to get all THE (Fairy) GODFATHER on us with vendetta-speak to the trans community.

QUIT WHILE YOU'RE AHEAD!!!

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 2:21pm

Obviously, the solution to all this is to remake Brokeback Mountain with transgendered cowboys and cowgirls.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 2:22pm

Bitch.

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 2:23pm

You are like the entire cast of BOYS IN THE BAND rolled into one! Please...just let the Cowboy take over for a little bit!

[SonofMammaMiaSam]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 2:25pm

ENDA. OVAH. OUT.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/9/07 at 2:27pm

Please...just let the Cowboy take over for a little bit!

Uh-oh. We're back to gay cowboys again.

That's where you REALLY get bitchy and queeny.