Clay's not fakin' anymore- Page 4

[Q]

Posted: 9/23/08 at 11:31pm

"So, yeah, I'm judging, but I think I've earned it."

Earned what? The right to perpetuate the same kind of nonsense perpetrated against yourself?

[The Ghost of Kringas]

Posted: 9/23/08 at 11:32pm

What nonsense? I never tried to deny who I was or deflect by claiming I just don't have sexual urges, when I was pushing thirty.
Updated On: 9/23/08 at 11:32 PM

[everythingtaboo]

Posted: 9/23/08 at 11:39pm

All I can say is...Quarter Turns for Everyone!




Wanna know what that means? Listen to this podcast with the guy who claimed Clay hooked up with him (NSFW):

LISTEN: http://odeo.com/episodes/1717302

READ: http://www.feastoffools.net/archives/2006/08/fof_365_-_quart.php

Updated On: 9/23/08 at 11:39 PM

[Luscious]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 12:52am

Congrats Clay!

Can Ricky be far behind?

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 1:30am

Some people never evolve. They die self-absorbed yet lacking self-awareness. There is no deadline anyone must meet in order to "grow up." Clay Aiken got where he got when he got there...just like the rest of us.

I'm sure we will be hearing more from him about his public denials as well as his finally being able to accept and declare who he is. This is just the beginning. If you want to judge him--and I'm neither encouraging nor discouraging it--at least wait until you hear what he has to say. And not just as it's reported in People.

[Q]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 1:39am

"when I was pushing thirty."

I don't want to assume anything, so help me understand, please. It seems that you're saying the world should revolve around YOUR experience, YOUR timetable and YOUR parameters. If that's not your perspective, I'm sorry - but it absolutely comes across that way.

So WHAT if you made decisions when you did - they're not anyone else's, they're yours. I would venture to guess that there are those who have lived who have made sacrifices and/or decisions that make you look like a disinterested, apathetic, incapable fool. But I would NEVER argue that THEIR parameters should define YOUR life choices.

Why are you willing to take that stance?

[The Ghost of Kringas]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 2:04am

Why aren't you?

I guess I don't understand how I can be any clearer. I've admitted my biases.

I realize that my decisions aren't the same as anyone else's. Frankly, if other people made their decisions the way I've made mine (in relation to my being gay, not the whole other hot mess that is my existance), I think we'd all have come a lot farther a lot faster.

. I would venture to guess that there are those who have lived who have made sacrifices and/or decisions that make you look like a disinterested, apathetic, incapable fool.

Fool, perhaps. But disinterested? Apathetic? Incapable? Of what, I dare ask?

And no, I'm NOT saying the world should revolve around my timetable. I'm not saying people SHOULD make their decisions as I would make mine.

But if I was out sucking dick (or at least selling my wares online in the hopes out getting dick) and then suddenly pretended like that part of my life didn't happen going as far as to say things like

But Aiken is 29 years old and he is also a human. Surely he must have needs. Urges. He contemplates this in silence for 20 or 30 seconds. “Ah think maybe I don’t! I mean, not really. I’ve just kind of shut it off, maybe. Is that bad?”

then yeah, I'd say my values had gotten out of whack. Kind of like your Larry Craigs, who deny who they are a little more destructively than your Aikens, of course. Am I supposed to walk a mile in Larry Craig's shoes, too?

It's the year 2008 and it's STILL this big of an issue. For the Clays of the world. And perhaps the Qs. But what do I know? I'm just a disinterested, apathetic, incapable fool.

[Q]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 2:14am

"It's the year 2008 and it's STILL this big of an issue. For the Clays of the world. And perhaps the Qs."

Obviously for the Clays of the world, hence the path he chose to take. But NOT the Qs - because if we're going to throw timetables around as if they mattered, I was way out way before you were.

But, that doesn't matter - which is my point.

I'm tired of hearing the dissatisfaction of disenfanchised people - which I admit has validity - being turned on those who are facing the same dillemma.

It might be convenient and easy to dismiss their struggle in terms of what is observable as an outsider, but I still think it's grotesque and inappropriate to dish out the same kind of negativity that caused your distress in the first place.

[The Ghost of Kringas]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 2:34am

What dilemma are Clay and I both facing?

And yes, Q, I KNOW you were there first, which I guess is part of the reason why I'm scratching my head at your reaction to my reaction.

I have to jump back to something else you said.

But I would NEVER argue that THEIR parameters should define YOUR life choices.

But guess what - that's pretty much how the world works and has worked since the beginning of time. We are constantly having to live our lives by parameters set by others. The parameters of others tell me in most states in the country that I've lived in and paid taxes to my whole life I can't marry. The parameters of others tell me I have to be careful of how I stand sometimes. Or talk sometimes, lest I get called a "fag" (or its derivatives). It happens on average myabe four, five times a month. No lie, it happened tonight when I was walking the dog. Once it happened when I was doing a sudoku at a bus stop. I think because I had my legs crossed.

So, pardon me for using my life experiences as a gay man when looking at this sordid mess. I use these examples not as an "oh, woe is me" manner. I use it in I really don't get what exactly we're applauding here.

I mean, Jesus Christ, do you REALLY think I'm just spouting how the world should live according to my standards because I'm reticent to jump on the "You go, girl!" bandwagon for a man who chose to infantilize himself rather than admit he had ANY sexual urges at all, ostensibly because it was asked to him in the context of having gay urges?

And I don't think a specific timetable matters, although, I'd suggest that your fixation on NOT having a time table suggests it's you that are apathetic.

Finally, it all boils down to my point isn't the fact that it took him so long to admit something that truly only the MOST deluded of his weren't 100% sure about - it's the duplicity. The lies of omission. The "I think I'd rather have the world think I was a grown man with a severe testosterone deficiency than allow an indication that I like to suck dick. Which I do."

[LePetiteFromage]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 2:53am

Updated On: 1/13/09 at 02:53 AM

[The Ghost of Kringas]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 3:13am

It might be convenient and easy to dismiss their struggle in terms of what is observable as an outsider, but I still think it's grotesque and inappropriate to dish out the same kind of negativity that caused your distress in the first place.

Well, like I said earlier, sour grapes and chip on my shoulder and all.

I get that you and I don't see eye to eye on this, but what I don't get is the prism through which you're seeing me. I'm still really scratching my head at the apathetic and disinterested part. And yes, I know you couched that in the "i could be perceived as that" frame, but even so...

But I'm not the target audience for the Clay Aiken show. I don't think I'm the target audience for most things that have some tie to gay people/gay rights/the gay experience. I found Will and Grace shrill and unpleasant. I'm thought Brokeback Mountain was... well, you remember.

Fromage, I DID think about the damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, but again, I don't know how well that holds up. I know people hate my hypotheticals, but if Larry Craig decides to come out tomorrow, do we just clap our hands and celebrate his bravery, or do we examine the actions BEFORE he started waving the pride flag? (Provided he's that type of gay. He could be a just "guy who happens to like other guys" for all I know.)

A dear friend once told me I was a contrarian and it was all I could do not to say, "No, that's not true," so perhaps it's just Pavlovian with me. I see a crowd of gays going one way, I immediately make a beeline for the opposite direction.

Don't get me wrong. I am thrilled to know there are so many people out there (as evidenced by this thread) willing to reserve judgment and just celebrate Clay just being who is, sexless manchild though he may be.

[LePetiteFromage]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 3:34am

Updated On: 1/13/09 at 03:34 AM

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 10:02am

I have no problem with Clay and his "timetable," to use a phrase found elsewhere on this thread.

But equally, I have no problem with those who DO have take issue with Clay.

The problem is that when someone is obviously gay (go ahead if you wish to attack that statement, but we all know what I mean) doesn't come out, it implies that there is something wrong with being gay, that it is a source of shame. So to those who are out, that's a slap in the face.

But people do what they can do when they can do it, and I choose to applaud that accomplishment, however late in the game it comes.

However, I have a big ole problem with the straights who throw around sh!t like "Oh, you want everybody to be gay!" So to all the homophobic Claymates who deny their bigotry as vehemently as they denied Clay's sexuality: Face up to your prejudices. You weren't doing him a favor.

[The Ghost of Kringas]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 10:03am

(I know you know this, it just seems like you feel there's a way of coming out that makes one better than others.)

I think it's more that I feel there are better ways of denying one's sexuality. :)

Since you like hypotheticals (and I don't mean this as an attack), if a close friend of yours was gay, but refused to acknowledge it, even though everyone else "knew", would you be so critical of them when and if they finally did come out?

Like them? I LOVE hypotheicals! :)

It would depend. If the friend was actively denying it - or being cagey with deflections that might as well have been denials - I probably WOULD be critical. Then again, when am I NOT critical? :)

ETA: Excellent post, Reg.


Updated On: 9/24/08 at 10:03 AM

Posted: 9/24/08 at 10:23am

The thing that sticks in my craw is he "I know my fans will be upset and I hope they don't leave hating me (I know I'm paraphrasing I didn't want to wade through that crap to find the quote)."

To me that underscores he thinks there is something wrong with being gay- something shameful. How about saying "I'm sorry if you are no longer going to like me because you now know who I really am. But honestly, since none of you were ever going to sleep with me- why do you care? Don't you want me to be happy? I wish I'd never lied but I can't go on lying and I hope you'll enjoy my next album no less because of it. Thanks for your support."

[The Ghost of Kringas]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 10:26am

How DARE you judge him!

[LePetiteFromage]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 10:28am

Updated On: 1/13/09 at 10:28 AM

[lildogs]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 10:30am

"Can Ricky be far behind?"

Is he ever?

But seriously folks, I'm thrilled that all that Claymates are proven fools and I've lived long enough to see it.

I don't really care, but being right feels nice, even if it is about an inconsequential total stranger.

[The Ghost of Kringas]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 10:42am

I guess in a way it is an admission that it's bad, since you're bending to their will.

Especially - like I pointed out earlier - years ago he was trolling for****online with a face pic. How is that NOT going back in the closet due to the allure of fame and money? At least partially?

However, when society does move beyond prejudice against homosexuality, I don't think that will mean there won't be those who struggle with it and deny it before coming out, the confusion some feel will still occur, just without the external threats faced now.

Agreed, but until more people come out - without years of cagey denials - how does that help anything?

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 10:50am

[The Ghost of Kringas]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 11:00am

Ha!

[Auggie27]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 12:02pm

Don't y'all think he raced back to SPAMALOT 'cause he's got a boyfriend in the chorus or somethin'? Or maybe just a waiter on 43rd street who grew up hearin' his Mama's Wayne Newton records? I mean, there's a story behind the story, don't y'all think??

[The Ghost of Kringas]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 12:08pm

I wonder how his boyfriend feels about dating someone who has no sexual feelins, y'all!

[Maraclea2]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 12:19pm

Is that even physiologically possible?

[lildogs]

Posted: 9/24/08 at 12:28pm

Unfortunately, yes.