ENOUGH with the "War on Christmas" nonsense- Page 3

[Calvin]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 2:58pm

Wait. This kid had to write a letter to Jesus? He's not allowed to pray? Is he on God's "Do Not Call" list?

And I'd completely blocked Butterfly Kisses out of my memory, but the horror came flooding back as soon as I saw the name.

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 3:01pm

Calvin, I'll give you hugs every morning and (horrible song imagery) at night.

[Plum]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 3:03pm

jrb, once again I think we miscommunicated somewhere, though I'm not sure where. Are you saying I'm wrong because I don't comperehend Jews who celebrate Christmas? I didn't say they're horrible people; just that I personally can't decontextualize the holiday to that extent. And I know I'm not the only one. To me, at that point you're not being Jewish. Doesn't mean I'm not getting Christmas presents for my friends who celebrate, or wishing them a happy holiday.

And stuff like "Christmas Shoes" is why I really and truly identify with the pre-reformation Grinch.

[Calvin]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 3:05pm

Will you walk beside the pony? It's my first ride.

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 3:07pm

Oh, Calvin, I'm sorry. I'm very happy to be your first, though.

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 3:07pm

I guess I'm kind'a glad I didn't grow up in this country and most of those songs are alien to me.

I know we've veered off the main topic, but going back to the previous discussion... I was raised Catholic, and therefore I celebrate Christmas. When I wish someone a Merry (or Happy) Christmas, I'm not implying and/or assuming that they are Christian, I am simply sharing this season with them.

When I lived in DC, I wished my friend Rachel, who is jewish, a Merry Christmas. She at first got offended, and I explained to her the above, and I said... Why don't you wish me a Happy Channukah (sp) or share with me your special holidays? We wound up having a long conversation, and at the next party, as we were exchanging gifts, she brought out a draddle and explained to everyone what Channukah was all about and it was great.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 3:08pm

It frustrates me that you pass so much judgement on others who don't adhere to the level of orthodoxy you seem to hold in your mind and heart--and are supposedly agnostic, which would make me THINK you wouldn't be so hardlined.

All I ask is for you to comprehend what I am saying--and respect that others can do what you don't agree with. Even if you can not fathom how someone can separate the holiday from the religion--it happens. That's not opinion--it's fact.

[Plum]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 3:15pm

What judgement? I'm a terrible, horrible Jew, jrb, really I am. I go to temple twice a year at the very most outside of bar and bat mitzvahs. I live the secular life every day. But for me there's a difference between that and...I dunno, celebrating Diwali or something. It's just not my holiday.

Like I said before, I'm not condemning Jews who celebrate Christmas as horrible people; I'm just saying I don't get their logic and I won't be joining them in that. Maybe I can't see the separation between Christmas the religious holiday and Christmas the secular shopping fair, but it seems you can't separate my beliefs from my assessments of the beliefs of others. Disagreement isn't condemnation.

[jasonf]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 3:19pm

Plum - you and I are on the EXACT same page on this issue - hell, same paragraph, same line - same word. No point in my repeating it, but I agree with absolutely everything you said, and I'm just about as Jewish as you are.

[Kringas]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 5:50pm

I always listen all the way through if it comes on. I figure that's enough to absolve all my sins for another year.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 6:38pm

PC killed Christmas

[Plum]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 6:43pm

Of course. I'm sure commercialization had nothing to do with it.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 7:39pm

I stand corrected

Commercialization put the knif in but PC twisted it around & jumped up & down on the corpse

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 7:44pm

How did PC kill Christmas? In what ways?

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 7:55pm

PC is conservative code for Bill Clinton, Jerby. I thought you knew that.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 7:58pm

Boy that is a stretch

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 8:01pm

Well, hey, we know that the economic boon of the Clinton era was a result of Reagan's policies and we know that the crunch we're going through due to Bushy was actually Clinton's fault.
It's not that far of a stretch to just blame Clinton for this, too.
I know that, personally, fellatio in the Oval Office during his tenure certainly ruined my life.

[Kringas]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 8:03pm

If PC killed Christmas, then who killed punctuation?

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 8:17pm

I still think this whole "War On Christmas" thing is a media fabulation on a par with the SARS scare and the "Gays Are Marrying" extravgaganza that sunk the election.

[Rose_MacShane]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 9:55pm

The reason we have a "war on Christmas" is simple: CHRISTMAS ISN'T THE ONLY HOLIDAY IN THE SEASON.
And "The Christmas Shoes" is the most cloying, maudlin, vomit-inducing crap ever written.

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 10:29pm

I have only heard "Christmas Shoes" once. Just to show you how "Broadway Brainwashed" I am...when I heard it, I thought it was from Forbidden Broadway!

Once I realized it was "for real," I expressed shock, horror and disbelief to my husband who was driving the car at the time. When we got home, he googled it and printed out the words. I was in awe. I have never, repeat NEVER, heard so repulsive, embarrassing and ludicrous a song in my life...and I was a teenager in the 70s, so I have lots to choose from.

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 11/27/05 at 11:19pm

Oh, and just for the record...

I was raised a Catholic, but kinda now practice secular Buddhism. I do Xmas every year because it's the tradition I grew up with. To me, it is not religious at all. I even have creches, but to me, they are "art," not representations of the event I believe brought the son of god to earth, blah, blah, blah. (My kids do not even understand the concept of "god" and have no idea who "Jesus" is. They do know how to "ohm" though.)

My ex-inlaws are Jewish and they love Xmas. It's snow and Santa and Rudolph and Frosty and all that crap, not Jesus. They do not feel they are "bad Jews" because they don't see Xmas as a religious holiday, and neither do I. In fact, all my Jewish friends come to MY house for Xmas because it's fun at my house, and their kids feel less isolated and more a part of things.

Many times I have explained to my best friend--who is Jewish--that Xmas is not a religious holiday. She argued with me about it for years (even though she spends like 5 days at my house every Xmas!) But we finally came to a conclusion we can live with. It goes like this: if you think it's a religious holiday and celebrate it as such, then it's religious for you. For the rest of us, it's like "Thanksgiving with presents." (In fact, in my house growing up, the Thanksgiving and Xmas meals were identical.)

My step-daughter is Jewish; my kids' godmother is Jewish (we had a wooky-wocky pagan "baptismal" ritual); my sister-in-law is Islamic; my brother is an atheist; and my sister is a Buddhist. We all celebrate Xmas and don't give Jesus a second thought. However, we respect the rights of our friends and family to do so if they wish.

Is there too much Christmas everywhere you turn from Halloween on? Absolutely. It's sickening. I'm tired of it already. But my children are really excited because for them, it's a magical time. I say let people do what they want...as long as it isn't hurting anyone. Hey, in France they celebrate all this stuff and receive the Catholic sacraments and all that, but they are unabashedly non-religious. And the best Xmas songs were written by Jewish songwriters, so let's just chill about it.

For me, Christmas is about "peace," which contradicts all of the alienation the holiday evokes. That's my problem with organized religion on the whole: it should bring people together, not divide them. And yet, that is what it does. Let's face it, "institutions" are not capable of effecting harmony in the world. So it is up to each of us as individuals to make peace happen. (Don't think it's gonna happen easily on this Board though. Call me cynical.)

(By the way, I have a party for my office every year and call it the "Kwanukmas Party," December's "Rainbow Holiday." But when everyone comes to my house, it's freaking "Christmas Universe"...although I do keep a menorah for good measure. )

SORRY THIS IS SO LONG!!!!