France and all that tricky free speech stuff

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/15/15 at 12:25am

As much of our discussion of the past week demonstrated, this business of free speech can be very tricky. And it can be extremely tricky in France. Perhaps you saw a similar headline about this:


French comedian arrested after Facebook post referencing terrorist attacks

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/15/15 at 12:30am

It's complicated, right? Not as (to use a word that caused consternation previously) EASY to do as it is to say.






This BBC article mentions four other incidents of people being detained for, you know, free speech

Updated On: 1/15/15 at 12:30 AM

[dramamama611]

Posted: 1/15/15 at 5:18am

Isn't the French law for which the comedian was accused of breaking something about supporting terrorism? Yes it involved speech and not action, but there was a specific statute on France's books about that very thing.

And I think its easy to forget that we take our right to free speech as the same as what everyone else considers it....and that just ain't so.

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 1/15/15 at 9:10am

"I do not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

I saw that quote (falsely attributed to Voltaire) posted a lot on social media in the days following the Charlie Hebdo attack.

Doesn't seem so clear cut now does it?


Newspaper in Israel Scrubs Women From a Photo of Paris Unity Rally

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/15/15 at 4:33pm

From an interview with France's ambassador to the US Gerard Araud on All Things Considered today:

"That's a debate that we have had with our American friends for some time, because of your First Amendment.

"For a long time, for instance, we have a debate on the Internet, because you accept on the Internet that you could have hate speech ... while it's forbidden in France.

"In France, the speech is free, but [not] if it could lead either to a crime, or if it could be seen as libel. But this is of course under the control of the judge. It's for the judge to decide whether the red lines have been crossed."


This would be a good time to kick it old school

[South Florida]

Posted: 1/16/15 at 7:03am

"One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other people's faith, one cannot make fun of faith." Pope Frances

I like this guy so far, but where do we draw the line, at faith? Substitute faith in this quote with any other word and it seems ridiculous, but faith, ah that's a different story. **** faith!

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/16/15 at 10:41am

Unless it's the album by George Michael, which still holds up.


Mayyybe, you mean every word you say...

[kdogg36]

Posted: 1/16/15 at 11:35am

South Florida, I think you're being far too kind to him. Here's what he said:

"If my good friend Dr. Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch," Francis said, throwing a pretend punch his way. "It's normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others."

"There are so many people who speak badly about religions or other religions, who make fun of them, who make a game out of the religions of others," he said. "They are provocateurs. And what happens to them is what would happen to Dr. Gasparri if he says a curse word against my mother. There is a limit."

The pope's words, and his clever little analogy, clearly imply that the Charlie Hebdo "provocateurs" deserved a violent response. I don't see any way around that.

On a more general note, I think progressives who think this pope isn't as big an a-hole as previous popes have been seriously duped.

Updated On: 1/16/15 at 11:35 AM

[South Florida]

Posted: 1/16/15 at 11:52am

Exactly, no matter what you do to preface that statement it's outrageous.

[LetticeDouffet]

Posted: 1/18/15 at 12:00pm

Alexander Stille in The New Yorker offers a nuanced explanation of French free-speech laws and why they seem to be unfairly held against Muslims. Their laws are very different from our First Amendment.

Blasphemy is legal in France, but hate speech is not: It is legal to say anything you want about a religion--but it is illegal to incite hatred against its followers.

So:

LEGAL IN FRANCE: Charlie Hebdo was allowed to refer to Pope John Paul II as “un pape de merde” (a shi_tty pope).

ILLEGAL IN FRANCE: Brigitte Bardot was convicted and fined for having written “We are tired of being led around by the nose by this population that is destroying our country.” She was guilty of inciting hatred against Muslims.

The article also covers the French laws against directly or indirectly inciting terrorism and denying the Holocaust.


Why French Law Treats Dieudonné and Charlie Hebdo Differently Updated On: 1/18/15 at 12:00 PM

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 1/18/15 at 12:36pm

Who did you used to be on here?

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/18/15 at 12:54pm

LD, that's why I printed the link last week that said not everybody is on the same page when claiming they were in solidarity around the world with activists and artists hashtagging and gathering for "free speech".

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/18/15 at 2:31pm

Maybe LD will answer who he used to be once LH answers who he used to be.
Updated On: 1/18/15 at 02:31 PM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/18/15 at 2:39pm

It's funny watching LH ask OTHER people who they used to be. Don'tchya think?

I certainly hope the people putting out Charlie Hebdo are edgy and satirical and free speechy enough to put a false cover on the next issue renaming the mag "Charlie Coulibaly".

[LetticeDouffet]

Posted: 1/18/15 at 11:45pm

That would be illegal in France. As the New Yorker article details, French law would consider that indirect incitement of terrorism, the charge that was got Dieudonné M’bala M’bala arrested.

[J_Jammer]

Posted: 1/20/15 at 1:22am

Just like in Germany they do not tolerate Nazi anything. They are less free in such speech.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/20/15 at 1:25am

Oooh, a Wikipedia link. The mark of the serious scholar.

[J_Jammer]

Posted: 1/20/15 at 1:35am

Oh, your ignorance of German laws is not shocking.

[sabrelady]

Posted: 1/22/15 at 6:23pm

Neil Gaiman & Chriss Riddell had their own response to freedom of speech or the restriction of same
Artist's Response to Terrot

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/22/15 at 7:49pm

^^^ That's pretty great.