Free Speech

[PalJoey]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 12:48am

Danish Cartoon On Display in Seattle—Finally!

[brdlwyr]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 12:53am

The message is simple!

[cturtle]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 1:26am

how do they expect people to react if they keep blowing themselves up?

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 1:57am

This whole thing makes me so pissed.

They want the ability to criticize others, but cannot tolerate any criticism of their own faith.

It is a double standard. Some of the more radical muslims want the ability to criticize freely those they dislike or disagree with, and then riot when it happens to their own faith or religious leaders.

How many times have Jews or Christians been demonized in the Saudi and Arab press. I have very little patience for an argument that is advocated by radical elements in the religion who are advocting their own agenda.

If a picture does this much damage and creates this much panic, perhaps we should just drop flyers all over the mideast and forget about conventional weapons

This is doing so much more harm than good. The Danes were some of the largest per capita supporters of the mideast peace process. They were one of the first to step in when the eartquakes hit Pakistan. Why would they ever try to help again.

Updated On: 2/9/06 at 01:57 AM

[cturtle]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 2:24am

:: cturtle applauds you want it when ::

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 9:17am

nice thread, pj.

[Sing a Song With Me]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 9:36am

Maybe it's just my brain this early in the morning, but I'm sort of missing the point of both the flyer and the accompanying blog.

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 9:46am

Have you tried to find any of the offending cartoons? It's as if the entire USA, and world, has eliminated them. They might be offensive, but if you believe in free speech, then they have the right to exist.

The poster is as much a message aimed at "us" as it is at "them".

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 9:53am

not that hard to find, flitty.
cartoons at wiki

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 9:58am

Sigh. Perhaps I should just make *you* my personal search engine, papa.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 10:15am

or in their original state as published in the danish paper jyllands-posten...last september! bit of a delayed reaction, huh?
jyllands-posten cartoons

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 10:27am

Papa,

Most mainstream news organizations will not publish them, including those "left-leanding" sources such as CNN and the LA Times. They are afraid of the backlash.

Most mainstream news organizations do not the report that the most offensive cartoon was possibly planted by the Imans to further incite their members. Notice, in what you linked to, there is no photo of MO as a pig, which is what got so many incited. This is because there is no evidence it occurred. It was created by the Iman's to further incite violence and anger.

Most mainstream news organizations are not reporting that these cartoon started because there was a general fear of the muslim radicals in Denmark, and the Newspaper at issue commissioned cartoons to try and oppose the intimidation that has resulted in killed filmmakers and a suppression of opposition to the current radicalism.

Papa, I do not like double standards and hypocrites - whether they happen to be a Republicn, Democrat, CNN or an Iman. If they want the benefits of free speech, then they have to live with the burdens.

I am inclined to have a shirt of poster made in principle alone.





Danish Imams Busted! Updated On: 2/9/06 at 10:27 AM

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 10:48am

oh, i know, ywiw.

it's a difficult situation all around with regard to the cartoons. i mean in one sense, some europeans can be perceived to be discriminating against muslim values (i.e. france's recent ban on headscarves and religious symbols, which although it encompasses all religious symbols has been taken as a direct shot at islam). but on the other hand, there's a fairly vocal anti-assimilation block within the european muslim community. i mean you can just look up to canada which allows sharia (islamic religious law) courts to handle many disputes within the muslim community.

it's important to note that while the most vocal folks always get the press and the most violent acts will always be the one reported, the vast majority of followers of islam are peace loving people. the religion has been hijacked by a nihilistic minority in many cases to further personal and political goals.

a telling view of the situation is one taken by grand ayatollah ali al-sistani, iraq's top shiite cleric, who has denounced the cartoons, but pointed out that the current view of islam is one that muslims themselves have helped create referring to "'misguided and oppressive' segments of the muslim community and said their actions 'projected a distorted and dark image of the faith of justice, love and brotherhood.'"
more on cartoon violence

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 11:15am

Papa, I agree with you completely -

But, as with anything else, unless the vast silent majority does something to take control, then they will not be heard, and it will be assumed that they are OK with the demonstrations and violence.

In Denmark (or the Netherlands, I am not sure where this killing happened, I admit) ever since the assassination of Van Gogh (who made movies and had one deemed unacceptable by the fundamentalist muslims) there has been great fear of speaking out against the movement. It is ironic that this fear was one of the basic reasons that these cartoon were first commissioned.

It is not fair to brush all Muslims with on broad brush, but just like here, where many moderate Christians do not do enough to stem the hate of the far right, the failure of the moderates to inject themselves into the discussion leads to assumptions that there is tacit approval for the tactics. I know that it is more fear of the reprisals for the consequences of trying to reign in the extreme views, but unless it is done, those extreme views will be interpreted to speak for the larger group.

There is no easy solution, but unless something is done now, it will just get worse and worse. The silent majority has to speak up and stop this, Now.


Updated On: 2/9/06 at 11:15 AM

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 11:55am

exactly, ywiw, which is why i thought it was important to highlight one voice that was doing exactly what we both think must be done.

i'm worried about just how much anger and violence can be whipped up over this issue. as usual some of the more irresponsible voices in the media are already declaring that this is the beginning of the final "conflict between civilizations" that will determine the future of the world (do ya think the chinese take offense to that kinda characterization, or do they just giggle).

while i understand the use of the american religious far right, i personally think it's irresponsible to make such comparisons. when was the last time the the far right held rallies in which thousands chanted in unison, "death to maureen dowd" or "death to howard dean" or "death hillary clinton"? when was the last time the far right burned a sovereign country's consulate because of the actions of a newspaper not even affiliated with that country's government? a valid cpomparison could be made should the far right start holding mass rallies in the street calling for the destruction of countries and the deaths of foreign dignitaries over allowing same sex marriage. there's a difference between saying god is punishing a country for a stance it has taken, and personally actually acting as the hand of god to take that vengeance.

like i said, that's just a personal thing for me. i know some will say, they're the same. they just vary by the degree to which they are willing to carry their hatred. is calling someone a "fag" in a derogatory manner equivalent to shooting them in the head because they are gay? i mean both could technically be called hate crimes, right?

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 1:03pm

Papa,

The comparison, while perhaps overstated, is not entirely unfair. Leaders of the Christian Right have perpetuated some very hateful views about others. And, the rhetoric used by the far right has encouraged others to kill and embrace violence in support of the cause. Especially when it comes to the anti-abortion movement and hate against gays.

It is true though, that while they are bullies, they do not usually resort to violence to get they message across. It is the exception, and not the rule.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 1:12pm

The radical wing of the "christian" right in many cases does advocate violent acts, many times at the rallies "Death to Fags" signs are prevalent, people are beaten and tortured, and abortion clinics are bombed. It is a small minority, but the comparison between the small minority of Moslems that are terrorists and the small minority of Christians that act on these views is very apt. Just as a larger minority in both groups are guilty of supporting the acts, normally due to their refusal to condemn the acts.

The the facts are that both groups root their hatred in their religious beliefs and because of that believe that they are responsible for enacting the "will of God," there is a great deal of violence in that.
The fear and hatred is deepseated and destructive, and very real.

Updated On: 2/8/06 at 01:12 PM

[Gothampc]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 1:22pm

In this same week, Kanye West appears on the cover of Rolling Stone as Jesus Christ. Do you see any Christians burning down anything?

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 1:32pm

Nope.

But, have him appear as Jesus on a TV show, and then they will get their panties in a wad. It is true, there is far more tolerance for how Chistian and Jewish religious icons are depicted than in the Muslim (or Moslem?) world. One of the issues that that Mohammed is not supposed to be depicted at all - so the very existence of the cartoon, regardless of their content, and a violation of the doctrine.

Sometime I am very sure that my belief that "Organized Religion is a Tool of the Devil" is well-founded and true.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 1:34pm

No riots, but I am sure that there are mass burnings of the magazine in my hometown, it is on the "regularly burned" list already.

[Jilani]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 1:38pm

As Andrew Sullivan recently noted in his blog, the difference between the Islamists and the Christianists is the world "probably," as in the following quote from a Christian fundamentalist on the subject of those responsible for casting gay actor Chad Allen in a Christian movie:

"[I]t would probably be an overreaction to firebomb these men's houses. But what they have done is no mistake. It is a calculated strategy."

http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/02/email_of_the_da_5.html

[Plum]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 1:43pm

i.e. france's recent ban on headscarves and religious symbols, which although it encompasses all religious symbols has been taken as a direct shot at islam

Well, it was. Well, actually, it was a shot at any religion which requires you to wear some kind of headdress, be it Islam, Judaism, or Sikh. Make everybody dress in their European best and they look...Gentile. Hooray for diversity.

Also, while I completely deplore the violent tactics being used to protest these cartoons, I'd just like to say I also hate people who use free speech as a license to be assholes. What you're allowed to do isn't the same as what you should do, and I have a hard time making heroes out of people who deliberately poke a dog in the eye to see if it'll bite.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 1:54pm

i still contend that you cannot compare burning a pile of magazines with burning a consulate. but that's just me.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 1:56pm

Papa, I don't think SP was making them moral equivalents.

Though SP is more than capable of speaking for himself.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/8/06 at 1:57pm

No those things are not the same, that was about Goth's side arguement, most Christian's are not as concerned with visual representations.
I am not saying the actions are the same or morally comparable.

But the violence of the Christian right in this country is real, you can compare bombing an abortion clinic with burning a consolate.

Updated On: 2/8/06 at 01:57 PM