Gay is Not the New Black. - Page 2

[singtopher]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 9:10pm

Amen.

I also believe that acceptance of those who are of a different race, creed, sexual preference, etc. is not an inherent trait, but something that must be learned and worked on as people.

[Eris0303]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 9:20pm

There's so many different worlds
So many different suns
And we have just one world
But we live in different ones

But it's written in the starlight
And every line on your palm
We're fools to make war
On our brothers in arms


Brothers in Arms as sung by Ryan Kelly

[broadwaytourist]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 9:56am

I take issue with the thought that acceptance is a learned trait. I believe that acceptance and tolerance are two inborn characteristics. Hate and segregation are what's learned. To quote the good Lieutinent "it must be carefully taught."

[tazber]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 3:22pm

I tihnk that it is a natural animalistic instinct to fear that which is unknown or different.
Back before man was civilized we lived in tribes or "communities" and developed traditions and rituals unique to each group. When two tribes came in contact with each other, one genreally overpowered the other and eventually integrated the weaker. Usually with force.

Of course, now that we are civilized we know better and are taught (or at least should be taught) to accept and respect people of different cultures.

But instinctually, we still have that primal reaction which was ingrained as a defense mechanism.

So I guess one could say that those who let their fear of gays and/or blacks, and/or mulsims etc. dictate their interactions with those groups are acting in an uncivlized manner.

[Q]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 3:32pm

"now that we are civilized we know better"

I'm not sure the current world status supports that claim. Unfortunately.

[tazber]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 3:51pm

You're of course correct, Q. I thought about adding a parenthetical caveat to that statement, but felt that it was understood by the point that we "should be taught to accept and respect people of different cultures".

But yea, "civilized" is certainly a subjective term in this discussion, but for the sake of clarity I am using that word in the boradest and most basic sense. Civilized, as compared to our ancestors who simply fought and conquered others of different tribes with no discussion or dissent.

[Q]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 3:56pm

"as compared to our ancestors who simply fought and conquered others of different tribes with no discussion or dissent"

Perhaps it's just my current state of mind, but what we see happening all around us seems very much like that - from entire regions being unstablized to individual mortal beatings simply because of dislike. But maybe that only harkins back to the time of The Crusades, not earlist times - which brings up the ugly part religion has played and continues to play, but that's a dead horse.

I do take your point - I just hope it isn't a little too rose-colored. let's hope the species can keep up with that view.

[tazber]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 4:00pm

I just hope it isn't a little too rose-colored

It probably is, you know I tend to lean toward the naive side at times.

[singtopher]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 8:36pm

Thanks Taz for so well articulating my point.

[broadwaytourist]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 10:55pm

Caution and self-preservation may be natural traits, but bigotry, chauvinism, and bias are learned characteristics taught by bigots, chauvinists, and religious institutions, perpetuated through generations until a person has the courage to think for themselves and listen to his/her inner self.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 11:05pm

Gay, straight, black, white
Same struggle
Same fight!
***
Hey hey
Ho Ho
Homophobia's got to go!
***
It's a black thing, you wouldn't understand!
***
Power to the people, right on!
***
Gay, straight
black, white
Marriage is a
civil right
***
Black, white
gay, straight
Love does not
discriminate!
***
=
***

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 11:15pm

It is a bit funny that I somehow think this is one big old case of topper - as in blacks feel they suffered so much discrimination, that there is no way that the gay community could understand their suffering and what they went through. (And, I am waiting for the topper comments).

I keep thinking of the time I was in the Holocaust Museum and an older Jewish man said "never again" to which I said "it had already happened again, in Cambodia, in the former Yugoslavia, in Africa." His response was "it was not the same, nothing like what we went through." It was as though acknowledging that other races/groups were also subjected to death camps somehow marginalized the experience of the Jews. He almost looked at me as a traitor to my religion for implying others had suffered as much as we had historically.

I sometimes wonder if the black community has a similar feeling towards gay rights - somehow they believe it marginalizes their struggle by recognizing that gay rights is a civil rights issue.

I could go off on my theory that the gay rights discrimination is more similar to the experience of Jews as opposed to blacks, but that is for another post and has no empirical evidence to support it...



Updated On: 7/18/09 at 11:15 PM

[ParisOriginal]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 11:19pm

I keep thinking of the time I was in the Holocaust Museum and an older Jewish man said "never again" to which I said "it had already happened again, in Cambodia, in the former Yugoslavia, in Africa." His response was "it was not the same, nothing like what we went through." It was as though acknowledging that other races/groups were also subjected to death camps somehow marginalized the experience of the Jews. He almost looked at me as a traitor to my religion for implying others had suffered as much as we had historically.

That's like that assemblyman in Brooklyn that tried to get holocaust museum in brooklyn (flatbush? sheepshead?) to remove the pieces that related to gypsies and homosexuals because somehow acknowledging their suffering took away from the suffering the Jews had gone through.

it makes absolutely no sense.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 11:20pm

"We've got to get togeth-uh-huh-huhhhhhhhh."

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 11:22pm

Now for some reason I have the Aerosmith version of "Come Together" in my head.

[ParisOriginal]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 11:23pm

I don't understand this need that some people have to claim they've cornered the market on suffering. When did it become a contest? and why do you keep insisting you've won? Winning isn't a good thing.


I mean, the reason more Jews were killed during the Hitler's reign than gypsies or homosexuals is because there were more Jews in his reach that gypsies and homosexuals.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 11:24pm

WRONG! Jesus Christ. No soup for you.

[ParisOriginal]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 11:26pm

Aww, but I wanted some chicken noodle soup, with a soda on the side.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 11:28pm

You're still wrong.

[ParisOriginal]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 11:29pm

have I been wrong enough to claim a majority shareholder's interest in being wrong and prevent anyone else from ever claiming to be wrong again?

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 7/18/09 at 11:33pm

What was your screen name before this one?

ETA half hour later: wassamatta? cat got your tongue?

Updated On: 7/18/09 at 11:33 PM

[BroomstickBoy]

Posted: 7/19/09 at 12:58am

Warning : assumptions and opinions ahead, no faux facts. I'm no Hasselbeck.

"I sometimes wonder if the black community has a similar feeling towards gay rights - somehow they believe it marginalizes their struggle by recognizing that gay rights is a civil rights issue." <--- I agree wholeheartedly.

I've come to assume that one problem the black community has with gays is because they feel the current struggle for gay rights takes the attention away from them as the oppressed minority. It's become a volleyball match of who has endured the worst trauma. Kind of like a verbal bible verse fight on why homosexuality is wrong.

I also remember a certain porn star turned minister saying he believed gay marriage was a "white america agenda". Now I don't mean to sound narrow-minded, but I wonder if more people feel that way.

But in reality, how does holding on to that tension and hatred caused by so much oppression help you? How does it move you forward when you're backing up? It's just like saying, "You've done this to our people, now we're doing it to you because we're empowered by righteousness and underlying bigotry to do just that."

No one has earned the right to force more oppression and such on a group of people. If you've been through something like that, with that history, you should be the first one to END it when it hit someone else, not add to it.

But I digress and go off topic and ramble. Quite a bit.

[ParisOriginal]

Posted: 7/19/09 at 1:03am

I've come to assume that one problem the black community has with gays is because they feel the current struggle for gay rights takes the attention away from them as the oppressed minority.


WHich is a point similar to the one YouWant brought up with the old Jewish man at the museum denying the significance of the genocides in cambodia and africa.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 7/19/09 at 1:05am

I think that is why he first referenced part of my post in his.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 7/19/09 at 11:30am

One of the problems, my dears, is that from the earliest days of queer activism, there has been a tension between the liberationists and the assimilationists. That's one way there's a parallel between the civil rights struggle and the queer one (think Black Panthers vs. NAACP).

The first culprit was The Advocate. In order to survive as a for profit business, the magazine had to develop a marketing niche. What they landed on were myths that are still repeated to this day, and often used to deny that discrimination against gay people exists in any systemic way they way discrimination based on skin color demonstrably does.

What are those myths (and do you repeat them)? Oh, gay people don't have kids so they have TONS OF DISPOSABLE INCOME! They LOVE to take vacations! They are better educated than the average American! They are so smart and so tasteful, they earn more money than straight people! The list goes on and on.

In other words, in order to prove to advertisers that it would be in their best interest to reach "the gay community" (even though the reference point for the creation of their pitch was based on a small percentage of Advocate subscribers), they began the process of establishing the word "gay" as meaning one specific thing: white, well-educated, affluent and MALE. Oh yes, they also ran with what has since been revealed to be an insanely overinflated population estimate (the old 1 in 10!) to make the market look much bigger than it is.

The gay liberationists, who came up out of the '60s anti-war movement, wanted to work in coalition with the pre-existing civil rights movement, and the women's movement. The assimilationists wanted to only focus on gay rights and not have to get bogged down in that sort of difficult collaborative work.

So what we have now is the assimilationists have basically held sway, (kind of like Microsoft in the computer world, not necessarily the best model but the one everybody has grown used to over the years). You have people fighting for the ultimate act of cultural assimilation (marriage!), and a reiterated image that this is an issue that applies to white, affluent gay men. Which is funny when you realize the majority of gay marriages in this country, in places where it's legal, is among lesbians.

So, the lack of coalition work will always come home to roost. Why WOULDN'T people of color presume this is a white male agenda and continue to ignore the very existence of gay people in their own communities? Sure, WE know there's a veritable rainbow of queer people out there, but marketing is the long-standing reason people without connections to gay communities don't know.

Personally, I don't have the energy or much investment in doing remedial work out there in the world, going over the issues that seemed so obvious to me 25 and 30 years ago but which were dismissed by the likes of the single issue Human Rights Campaign Fund as "too non-specific regarding gay rights." Gay rights. I was interested in working towards gay liberation. A liberation philosophy would have dovetailed perfectly with other liberation movements, and folks within them would have SEEN the similarities between our goals.