Gay is Not the New Black.

[singtopher]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 1:03pm

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/07/16/granderson.obama.gays/index.html

Discuss.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 1:05pm

I don't have much to add because I feel like this topic always comes back to a circular argument ("Minorities aren't included" "Well, no one recruited me to activism!" etc, back and forth back and forth), but I couldn't help but bristle at this comment

If blacks are less accepting of gays than other racial groups -- and that is certainly debatable -- then the parade of gay people calling Obama a "disappointment" on television is counterproductive in gaining acceptance, to say the least.

I KNOW things are complicated and complex, but isn't reducing it down to "Well, if you are going to criticize the president then you deserve to not be accepted by black people" (which - unless I'm reading it wrong - is what it is implying) rather problematic in and of itself?

[uncageg]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 1:13pm

I responded to this on Facebook. May print my response here also. Phyllis, I understand where he was going with that statement but I really don't think it applies to our President and he probably should not have included it in the article or said it a different way.

[tazber]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 1:16pm

I took it as him saying, "act normal and stop making noise and then maybe we'll support you".

And that sentiment (which I hear more and more from all groups, not just Blacks) is exactly why "gay" IS the new "black".

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 1:27pm

I'd like to hear your thoughts, UNCAGE! I've cross-posted some of mine on Pam's House Blend, where I first saw this article.

I've tried to parse that comment a million times, but I can't make any more sense of it than what I said earlier. Criticizing the president for his inaction (and turnabout) on these issues has nothing to do with his race, and I resent the implication (not from you, of course!) that if we want race relations in the gay community to improve we better STFU when it comes to criticizing people who happen to be black.

Here's another thing I posted on Pam's regarding the racism in the gay community.

Anytime there are a lot of white people anywhere a percentage of them are going to be racist. Gay, straight, Christian, etc, whatever.

But when it comes to the greater gay community (whatever that actually entails), who really DOES feel included?

When I read the comments about "not feeling like a part of the larger gay pride movement," I really wish I could have the explained to me in detail.

It's not that I'm trying to say there isn't a point to be made about racism in the GLBT community, because there is. I've seen it and I know it continues to exist. But when we're talking exclusion - especially when it comes to bar behavior and pride, because I hate to break it him, but as a pudgy, extremely hairy, average looking gay (and admittedly white) male, I don't necessarily feel all that "included" when I attend events, bars, rallies, etc with the gay community at large - I don't necessarily think it's all about race all the time.

As for those who snort that we are looking for "instant gratification," I don't know that many of us are. I think we'd like things to improve in our lifetimes, and indeed they have. Maybe we'd like to see things move a little faster simple because we're operating on the (possibly false) assumption that humankind SHOULD be be a little wiser than they were four hundred (or even forty years ago).

And just out of curiosity, who is perpetuating the "gay is the new black" meme? Generally when I hear the gay community's struggle compared to that of African-Americans that's immediately shot down (and often by a well meaning white person). I sometimes feel that the people constantly reminding us that gay is NOT the new black are the ones reminding us that anyone believed that in first place.
Updated On: 7/17/09 at 01:27 PM

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 1:27pm

It almost sounds to me like he's saying white gays need to suffer for hundreds of years just like black people historically have until our demands for equal rights deserve to be heard and taken seriously.

[uncageg]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 1:33pm

This is one of those threads that I wish we could all be in the same room actually talking about the subject as opposed to posting our thoughts.

[madbrian]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 1:38pm

I hear Denver is lovely this time of year.

[uncageg]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 1:43pm

Come on over! I will have food and cocktails ready! We can sit on the patio! Madbrian, the waether has been wonderful this summer. Actually needed heating blankets the other week up in the mountains at the cabin!

[tazber]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 1:53pm

?And just out of curiosity, who is perpetuating the "gay is the new black" meme?"

I actually hear it a lot. And always from whites with the subtext being "oh god, now another group is bitching about equal rights".

It's dismissive of gays and racist towards blacks.

I suppose the truth is that there are many ways in which the two can be compared, and many ways in which they differ.

[uncageg]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 1:59pm

taz, I have heard it a bit out here and it is never from a black person.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 2:02pm

Most black people I know and/or heard from HAAAAAAAAAAATES when people say it.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 2:05pm

Chance - seriously - you need to take a prozac and chill. All this talk about kicking people and guys being castrated...it's not healthy. And no, I am not joking or jumping on you. I am serious

[best12bars]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 2:06pm

I can't imagine a black person ever saying that. It would reduce his/her racial struggles to nothing more than a trivial trend.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 2:11pm

No, I don't. People have the right to keep secret what they want to keep secret. And you saying that just showed how immature you are. It's just like saying "Let's blame the gays for the AIDS epidemic because it was God's plague to them for their sins." If people would stop screwing each other without protection or getting tested first then THAT would help. It's not WHAT you do but how you DO it and how you keep yourself and your partner safe.

Updated On: 7/17/09 at 02:11 PM

[uncageg]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 2:19pm

And really, I don't think that guys on the DL are really included in this. They aren't all actively pushing for gay rights. I say "all" because I have known a very few that have and do. JMO

And best12, I agree with you.

[madbrian]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 2:25pm

Trying to equate forms of discrimination is impossible and unproductive. I've never heard an intelligent person even try to make a valid comparison. Any attempt will do more harm than good.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 3:16pm

It almost sounds to me like he's saying white gays need to suffer for hundreds of years just like black people historically have until our demands for equal rights deserve to be heard and taken seriously.

I interpreted it as him saying that black gay men identify as black first and gay second, going along with his comment that the N-word trumps the F-word. For a community that after 400 years is still struggling to gain equality, they want to see racism overcome before homophobia. It seems like everyone is jumping on the new civil rights bandwagon before the last civil rights movement was actually solved.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 3:21pm

But - and I say this while acknowledging that the racial struggle IS ongoing - it kind of implies that gay people appeared out of the blue in the past quarter of a century or so. It ain't like people suddenly decided in this century that same-sex loving was offensive to their sensibilities.

Like I said earlier, this all just becomes a circular arguement. I think comparisons can be made to other struggles, but I don't think it's wise to try and equate one group's oppression with another's.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 4:12pm

I think it was Hannah Arendt who argued that "mass historical traumas" should be viewed as "singularities." She was talking about things like the use of nuclear weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Holocaust, the African slave trade, the treatment of Native Americans.

Each one is unthinkably horrific, but Phyllis is right: The minute you equate them, you diminish what you equate and offend the survivors.

The real problem with "gay is the new black" is not whether it is true or false but that it is shallow. A concept as huge as the oppression of a group of people (or two groups of people) cannot be boiled down into a soundbite. Each one can only be discussed as a singularity.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 5:07pm

I find it offensive.

[soapguy17]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 7:57pm

I've read the article twice and I don't think he said anything ridiculous, but I can't say I agree with him.

I grew up in a black community, a southern black community at that, and the acceptance I got from it was. . . errr. . . not a good one. That doesn't justify the alleged slur tossing but, if the gay community is guilty so is the black community. I got a car when I was 16 not because my family was/is wealthy, but because of the stuff I had to put up with on the bus rides home.

Not to split hairs, but for most blacks, the n-word trumps the f-word.
If gay and black aren't interchangeable (which they aren't), then how does non-gay blacks feeling about the f-word actually correlate with its level of offensiveness? Each word in a hateful context gets exactly the same reaction from me.

I personally find that the cultures clash with one another, so coexisting in both might not be the easiest thing in the world.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 7:59pm

And really, I don't think that guys on the DL are really included in this.

They are in this specific article, though.

[Eris0303]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 8:44pm

I'm not really sure how this adds to the current discussion but I was listening to a song called Brothers in Arms and one of the lyrics really stuck out for me. It reminded me of what is going on now and what has happened in the past.

"We're fools to make war on our brothers in arms."

Personly, I don't see black, white, gay, straight, hispanic, etc. What I do see is that we're all Americans and we live together in this country. We work together, we laugh together, and we love together. We're all brothers (and sisters).

[singtopher]

Posted: 7/17/09 at 9:10pm

Amen.

I also believe that acceptance of those who are of a different race, creed, sexual preference, etc. is not an inherent trait, but something that must be learned and worked on as people.