Getting closer to outlawing abortion?- Page 3

[brdlwyr]

Posted: 6/9/05 at 1:59pm

DGrant:

1. Did you think the tortfeasor was liable?

No, my argument in 1992 was the fetus did not have rights and therefore could not have a cause of action against the tortfeasor. By giving the fetus legal rights, you go down the road of possibility of the rights of the fetus trumping the rights of the woman., thus making an abortion illegal.

2. What would it take to change the civil liability to a criminal one?

Civil liability comes from common law or by a legislative body granting a cause of action. Generally, criminal liability comes from a state or federal statute which prohibits certain activities.

If there is criminal liability for the death of the fetus, could the woman have a civil action against the boyfriend for wrongful death of the fetus? That action would likely have to be granted by statute because my recollection is that under common law a fetus had no rights, thus the reason for these types of statutes.

Common law
A system of law that is derived from judges' decisions (which arise from the judicial branch of government), rather than statutes or constitutions (which are derived from the legislative branch of government).

[Rose_MacShane]

Posted: 6/9/05 at 2:06pm

"But, again, it's the least of your worries because you can have an abortion. The mess can be cleaned up, so to speak."

But, as you said earlier, you have watched a number of female friends struggle with the decision. I honestly don't know what I would do in that situation. I would hardly consider being pregnant the least of my worries, considering that I'm single, still live at home, have no money...

Posted: 6/9/05 at 2:08pm

"Common law
A system of law that is derived from judges' decisions"

This is where my worry is coming from (although, I can't deny my ignorance of how this all works.) It seems to me that there are judgements being handed down that COULD be interpreted as giving 'rights to the fetus' (I really don't know how to express that without sounding so clinical and dismissive.) And I'm wondering who or what group could take those together and move forward with a 'common law' decision.

[robbiej]

Posted: 6/9/05 at 2:14pm

I actually don't think it's the least of anyone's worries, in reality. I was just using bunch's language.

I also wasn't clear in my earlier post. It wasn't that they had a hard time making the decision to have an abortion. They knew they couldn't possibly be mothers at that stage in their lives and so they made the only decision they could. Each of them, however, were left very scarred by the experience and it took them a good, long time to get back on an even keel.

In the end, I do have compassion for people...no...I'm sorry...WOMEN who have to go through such a procedure and all its emotional ramifications. But why get to that point? Honestly. People can have remarkably full sex lives and never get pregnant. Because of responsible behavior. And why no one wants to discuss that is beyond me.

[bunchamuncha]

Posted: 6/9/05 at 2:29pm

Because most people are responsible.

[robbiej]

Posted: 6/9/05 at 2:47pm

Well...I would agree with you there. Most people are responsible. But 1.3 million abortions a year is still a pretty high number.

In the end, I fully support a woman's right to choose. But, as Addy just said, it's a wrenching decision. Terrible. And the emotional fallout can be devestating.

I think a lot of people aren't necessarily prepared to handle that fallout. And I know my friends didn't really receive the counselling they needed...and this was here in NYC.

I believe there is so much more that can be done before we get to the point of a woman having to make that choice. Both partners must be responsible for birth control. If couples are not prepared to be parents, the pill plus condoms should be encouraged. I know it can seem like an inconvenience in the heat of the moment...but take it from someone who knows that a bad decision in the throes of passion can lead to far worse results.

[bunchamuncha]

Posted: 6/9/05 at 2:57pm

but robbiej, you make it sound as if think people use abortion as a means of birth control, which I don't think is the case. You say you support the right to choose, so leave it at that. Obviously there's some circumstance that has gotten a person to that point and whether it was through irresponsibility, a contraceptive that didn't work or rape, someone is at that point.

Posted: 6/9/05 at 2:59pm

"you make it sound as if think people use abortion as a means of birth control, which I don't think is the case."

I know a couple of people who work in the medical profession that would tell you the number is higher than you think - unfortunately.

[robbiej]

Posted: 6/9/05 at 3:22pm

bunch,

You are correct. I should leave it at that. I guess I'm a little touchy because of some of the comments made in the Steam Room thread that were incredibly judgemental. There does seem to be a bit of a double standard (especially recently) of gay men once again being put under a microscope because of the recent spike in HIV infections due to crystal meth and yet it's taboo to suggest that heterosexuals should be as concerned about preventing pregnancy.

When I think of my friends who have terminated pregnancies, they (we, actually) were all so young. I wish they, and in some cases, I, were made fully aware of our options as sexual beings. I wish someone encouraged us to masturbate and explore other ways of express ourselves sexually besides penetration. Perhaps my anger is more at those who are supposed to teach us about such things, but couldn't because of embarrassment or it wasn't 'proper'. And I can assure you that some of my anger is certainly about the many conversations I've had with my straight friends over the years who assure me that they really aren't at risk for HIV. So I do apologize if I've offended anyone.

[brdlwyr]

Posted: 6/9/05 at 3:37pm

Robbie - I am glad that you explained some of your comments in reference to the Steam Room thread. (I did not see or read that thread) I understand your reference point. As I was surprised by your hostile initial resoponse.

DGrant - from my understanding of an abortion which involves the dilation of the uterus and then evacuation with a vacuum, I am shocked that any woman would choose abortion as the primary method of birth control.

[bythesword84]

Posted: 6/9/05 at 3:39pm

I think more people use abortion as a method of birth control than would like to admit it.

I also think one of the points Robbiej made is correct- how difficult is it to be responsible? If you don't want to get pregnant then you do what you have to do to prevent that happening, you don't let it happen and then abort it.

Then again, what do I know? I'm not pro-choice.

But, that doesn't matter because the truth of the matter is abortion is legal. And yes, I do think the father should have a right to have a say in what happens. I know most people don't agree with that but I think that his rights should be at least considered if not always upheld. Why? Because he was as much a part of getting pregnant as the woman is. I understand the belief that "its my body no one can tell me what to do with it" but if its your body then shouldn't you be actively preventing pregnancy if you don't want to get pregnant?

[Angel Dumott Schunard]

Posted: 6/9/05 at 3:39pm

In school, I cant go to the nurse and ask for an aspirin without the signature of my parents BUT I can get an abortion on my own (if I could get pregnant...).