Harry Potter Book Club - Chapter 16 A Very Frosty Christmas- Page 8

[Patronus]

Posted: 3/4/06 at 10:40am

We aren't supposed to be using future chapters in this discussion.

That being said I still say that given what has happened in their 5 previous years at Hogwarts there is plenty to justify a loathing. (assuming we go with the most extreme connotation of the word as you want to use it- I still maintain that for 90% of the students it's a more rivalry type loathing than a hatred type) By jumping ahead and using examples from later chapters in this book you would be providing even more extreme and overwhelming evidence for there to be a legitimate loathing between the two houses.

Once again, prejudice is an opinion formed without fact or an irrational position. After 5 years of battle between these two houses, it's really illogical to say that the loathing is without reason or irrational.

I do think that we are at an impasse and as you suggested earlier we may have to agree to disagree again. (I don't share you feelings of Hermione not being able to handle pressure either) I'd love to hear what others have to say on this topic though.

Updated On: 3/4/06 at 10:40 AM

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 3/4/06 at 1:46pm

OvertheMoon, no jumping ahead. Make your case using canon from the first 6 chapters of HBP or the first five books please.

I agree with Patronus that for the most part the relations between the houses is more of a rivalry, like people who pull for different sports teams.

To answer the question, I think that Harry's conclusion that Draco is up to no good is justified. It says that he has identified Draco as a likely enemy and, like others have said, is vigilant. Harry's role in the capture of Draco's father and Lucius's role in Sirius's death have elevated what was more of a school boy rivalry into something much more serious.

However to highlight another question:
Do you think that Harry truly appreciates the dangers he is facing? Do you think that the Ministry is being too cautious?
I wonder if Harry's actions indicate that he does not fully appreciate the danger he is facing. While he does not wander off while at the Burrow because Dumbledore told him not to, but he can't resist following Draco.
Updated On: 3/4/06 at 01:46 PM

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 3/4/06 at 8:00pm

I gave a warning that I was jumping ahead a little bit, but I think that my opinions should be able to be supported by evidence. That is why I went ahead and used that quote. It didn't even give anything away about the next chapter. Any way, like I said before and that Patronus reiterated, we will just have to agree to disagree, because we are all entitled to our own opinions.

Now, if it agreeable to you, why don't we forget we fussed and quarrelled and enjoy examining HPB?

[Patronus]

Posted: 3/4/06 at 8:11pm

I gave a warning that I was jumping ahead a little bit, but I think that my opinions should be able to be supported by evidence. That is why I went ahead and used that quote. It didn't even give anything away about the next chapter.

Agreed. It's just that for the purpose of this discussion the supporting evidence that you provided actually occurs in the future.

Unless you scored an "O" in your Divination O.W.L.S, then you can't really use that.

Any way, like I said before and that Patronus reiterated, we will just have to agree to disagree, because we are all entitled to our own opinions.

Agreed. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but part of the fun is discussion/analyzing those opinions don't you think? Otherwise, what's the point of a book club?

Now, if it agreeable to you, why don't we forget we fussed and quarrelled and enjoy examining HPB?

I am not entirely sure if it's your intent, but you sound a little defensive there. I don't feel that we "fussed and quarrelled" at all, but rather we discussed our differing opinions in a thread devoted to discussing HP:HBP. If you felt that you were being attacked, I apologize. That wasn't at all my intent, I just found what I interpreted as holes in your logic and was hoping you could fill those in for me. For me, the fun is the discussion aspect of each others thoughts. It's not personal at all.

Anyway, I agree that it's time to move on and I look forward to continuing my enjoyment of this discussion!

Thanks again to yodamarie78 for doing a wonderful job!


Updated On: 3/4/06 at 08:11 PM

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 3/4/06 at 8:59pm

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to get defensive. Let's lay this to rest and be friends.

Now, since Chapter 7 will be up on Monday, I'll just ask a question of my own.

What do you think the significance of the veil in the Department of Mysteries is?

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 3/6/06 at 9:55am

Bumping the thread from page 3! to announce that due to the fact that I was watching the Oscars last night, instead of writing, there will be no new questions this morning. Sorry! I'll work on them this evening and post tomorrow morning.

Use this time to catch up and the many of you who never commented on Chapter 6 might use it to say something.

[Patronus]

Posted: 3/6/06 at 10:24am

Totally understood, ym78!

We could all probably use an extra day to breathe. Take your time.

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 3/6/06 at 10:27am

I know you actually mean that, but with the Snape avatar glaring at me it comes across as a little sarcastic and condesending.

[Patronus]

Posted: 3/6/06 at 10:28am

Yes, well perhaps it is time to consider changing the Snape avatar then. :-P

[Kitzarina]

Posted: 3/6/06 at 10:33am

PLEASE don't!!!

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 3/6/06 at 10:33am

I knew you were going to say that! Don't take Alan away just because of me. It's just an interesting example of how much avatars can influence the perception of people. Like how people kept calling Kitz a he when she had Dan and Rupert in hers.

[Patronus]

Posted: 3/6/06 at 10:36am

I gotta keep you all on your toes though.

Ugh, I have to get ready for work now. "Big Brother" is going to be in my office all day and it's really stressful.

le sigh.

[Kitzarina]

Posted: 3/6/06 at 10:42am

Actually the "he" was when I had Sirius as my av.

[pndmnd]

Posted: 3/6/06 at 6:59pm

I suppose I'm one of those people who never commented on this chapter, so here goes (and these are just my opinions):

How does the Narcissa we see in this chapter compare to the Narcissa of Chapter 2?

Narcissa is much more composed in this chapter (obviously). No matter how scared she is for her son, she's going to hate Harry. He and Draco have never gotten along, and when Draco talks at home, he probably makes Harry out to be the bully who gets away with everything because of Dumbledore. Harry is also responsible for Lucius ending up in Azkaban (and, thus, Draco being chosen by Voldemort for a task). Also, Narcissa's fears in this dark time are going to be much different from other wizards and witches. She isn't afraid that Voldemort will attack her, she's afraid that the MoM and OotP will take down her family even more than they already have. I'm not sure what that means yet, it's just an interesting point I thought worth mentioning.

Harry automatically assumes that Draco is up to something when he sees him walking alone. He’s right, but what does this say about Harry?

Well, I'm a little afraid to tackle this question! Just kidding...sort of. Anyway, I kind of agree with both rules of thought on this one. Yes, Harry is justified in being suspicious of Draco, given who his family is in league with. At the same time, I do think Harry has proven himself in the past to be quick to jump to conclusions. Remember in OotP that, when Harry thought Sirius was in danger, Harry jumped to thinking there was nobody there to help, when Snape was there. In SS/PS, the trio thought Snape was the one trying to harm Harry and get to the stone, when really it was Quirrel. Multiple times Harry has assumed that Snape is bad, but has never been proven right. I think it's also important to mention (again) that Harry was almost put into Slytherin by the Sorting Hat, so not all Slytherin are automatically bad.

Do you think that Harry truly appreciates the dangers he is facing? Do you think that the Ministry is being too cautious?

I don't think Harry is taking the dangers to heart. He knows that he needs to be careful, yet he views having his invisibility cloak with him all the time as a way to sneak off to spy, when, saftey wise, that's the stupidest thing he could have done! I don't think that most of the ministry's guides are very helpful (especially asking a secret to know if it's the real person--as Dumbledore said, the Death Eater could easily have gotten that information out of him). I do think, though, that the OotP has more cautions in place, and I don't think Harry is acting very wisely given the fact that there are many dark wizards out there who would like nothing more than to see him specifically dead.

Updated On: 3/7/06 at 06:59 PM

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 3/7/06 at 8:16am

Chapter 7 The Slug Club

Harry continues to worry about what Draco may have been doing in
Knockturn Alley, but Ron and Hermione are less concerned. Just before leaving for Hogwarts Harry tells Mr. Weasley about what they saw and heard in Knockturn Alley and asks him to look into it. On the train Harry, Neville, and Ginny are invited to have lunch with the new Professor Slughorn along with other well connected students. After the lunch Harry sneaks into Draco's compartment to see if he can find out more about what Draco is up to. Harry learns very little and after everyone else leaves the train Draco paralyses him and leaves Harry under his invisibility cloak to be carried back to London.

*Discussion Questions*

Why do you think Hermione, Ron, and Mr. Weasley are all unconcerned about Draco's actions?

Harry muses on what might have changed had Voldemort chosen Neville instead of him. What do you think?

How does Harry's reaction to being seen with Neville and Luna compare to a similar scene in OotP? How does this demonstrate the changes in Harry's character?

Does Harry underestimate Draco?
Updated On: 3/7/06 at 08:16 AM

[KelRel]

Posted: 3/7/06 at 3:22pm

This doesn't have to do with chapter 7 as I am a few chapters behind, but I think that I just found a clue to how it all will end from chapter 5. PM me if you want to discuss it.

[Patronus]

Posted: 3/7/06 at 4:08pm

Why do you think Hermione, Ron, and Mr. Weasley are all unconcerned about Draco's actions?

As was mentioned in the chapter, the fact that Draco is only 16 would seemingly make Draco ineligible to be a Death Eater or at the very least unworthy in the eyes of Voldemort.

Draco, while clearly being established as someone who is in allegiance with Voldemort has proven to be inefficient at best in creating an obstacle for Harry and his friends. I think Ron and Hermione are dismissing the notion that Draco could be such an important player in Voldemort's plan based on how easily they have foiled his plans over the previous 5 years. In other words, given all that is going on in the wizarding world right now, I think Ron, Hermione and even Mr. Weasley are viewing Draco Malfoy as the least of their concerns.

Mr. Weasley's response seems to contain frustration mainly that Harry, Ron and Hermione disobeyed his request to stay in the Joke shop. I also think hey may have thought Harry was trying to find something where Mr. Weasley clearly believed there was nothing.

One extremely interesting line from Harry is:

"Does anyone really know what You-Know-Who would or wouldn't do?: asked Harry angrily.

While logic would dictate that Voldemort wouldn't enlist Draco because he is too young and untrained, it is also important to note that we are dealing with the most powerful dark wizard of all time.

We learned in Chapter 2 that Draco is in fact playing a role in Voldemort's plan and this shows how cunning the Dark Lord really is. Everyone is dismissing it as foolish to think that Draco could be a death eater, which is precisely what makes him dangerous.

Harry muses on what might have changed had Voldemort chosen Neville instead of him. What do you think?

I personally think that there was no chance that Neville could have been the "chosen one." Harry was chosen not only by destiny and fate, but also by Voldemoret himself. However, the "what-ifs" are inevitable and I do think that Neville will play a pivotal role in the outcome of this series. However, I feel that introducing the concept that Neville could have also been the chosen one is simply a literary device being employed by Jo Rowling to indicate just how close to be a "normal boy" (well as normal as a young wizard can be) Harry Pottery really was.


How does Harry's reaction to being seen with Neville and Luna compare to a similar scene in OotP? How does this demonstrate the changes in Harry's character?

This is just further evidence that Harry is maturing and accepting his role in the battle of good vs evil. Not only did he not freak out and get all "broody" as he did in Order of the Phoenix, but he showed poise and also managed to raise Luna and Neville's spirits and morale in the process.

He is showing the poise necessary to lead Dumbledore's Army forward, but also is humble enough to be reluctant to step forward as the leader despite it being the wishes of all of his friends. Albeit reluctantly, he is really started to display all of the characteristics of a true hero.

I don't have time to answer the last question right now, but I'll get to it another time.

[KelRel]

Posted: 3/7/06 at 4:36pm

Patronous, I kind of disagree with you about the possibility of Neville NOT being the chosen one. Did you notice that Neville got the last wand sold from Olivander's? I doubt that that is a coincedence....What do you guys think?

[Atrias]

Posted: 3/7/06 at 5:44pm

Kel, I don't know. Even if Neville's wand is special, Harry and Voldemort share a very special connection in that their wand cores come from the same bird. While I also think that Neville is going to play a very important role (heroic death, I'm thinking)I don't think that Neville was ever meant to be the "Chosen One."

[KelRel]

Posted: 3/7/06 at 6:17pm

Atrias, check your PMs.

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 3/7/06 at 7:03pm

Why do you think Hermione, Ron, and Mr. Weasley are all unconcerned about Draco's actions?

I agree with Patronus on this one; since Harry, Ron, and Hermione have previously thwarted Malfoy's plans, so Mr. Weasley, Ron and Hermione don't really see Malfoy as an threat. An annoying obstacle, maybe, but a threat? Not so much. Malfoy has shown that he is a capable wizard, but he's never done anything worthy of much recognition, unlike the Trio.

A part of their insistence that he's not a Death Eater could be because they don't want it to be true; it would be hard for them to accept the fact that there's a Death Eater at Hogwarts. I think that they may want to believe that Voldemort wouldn't use a 16 year old because they don't want to think that their peers are already succumbing to Voldemort's influence.

Harry muses on what might have changed had Voldemort chosen Neville instead of him. What do you think?

A very tricky question. Personally, I don't think that Neville possesses the proper qualities for being The Chosen One. Where Neville is a bit afraid to take risks, Harry has come to accept the risks that he will have to take. I do believe, however, that Neville is awfully mature for his age. The patience that he demonstrates when he is dealing with his parents in OotP was very admirable, and my respect for him increased after reading that.

How does Harry's reaction to being seen with Neville and Luna compare to a similar scene in OotP? How does this demonstrate the changes in Harry's character?

In OotP, Harry had a similar situation occur when a girl walked in (Cho in OotP and Romilda Vane in HPB). In OotP, Harry wishes that Cho would see him with a cooler group of people than Neville and Luna, so that he himself seemed cooler by association, I suppose. In HPB, he responds coldly when Romilda suggests that he sit with cooler people. I think this shows a lot of maturity on Harry's part. He seems to have realized that these were the people who were going to be loyal to him (when they fought with him at the Ministry), and not some girl like Cho, who is moody and unloyal to him.

Does Harry underestimate Draco?

I don't think Harry really underestimates Draco. He knows that Draco is very open and opinionated in what he believes in, and that he is terribly ambitious. Harry knows that Draco would probably do anything to gain power, so no, I don't think that Harry underestimates him. Ron and Hermione, however, completely underestimate him.

[pndmnd]

Posted: 3/7/06 at 8:17pm

Why do you think Hermione, Ron, and Mr. Weasley are all unconcerned about Draco's actions?

I agree with all the above on this one. Don't really have anything more to add to it at this point!

Harry muses on what might have changed had Voldemort chosen Neville instead of him. What do you think?

Wondering what might have been is a naturall thing, especially given that Harry just found out a few months ago how close he came to growing up normal and with both of his parents alive. If Voldemort had chosen Neville, and if his mother had died for him the way that Lily did for Harry, then Neville is the one who would have had some of the transfer of powers from Voldemort. Perhaps he would have been good at something besides Herbology. I think the thing about the wands is worth some further discussion. If Neville had been marked as the chosen one, then Harry's wand might have chosen Neville, keeping the connection between the "Chosen One" and Voldemort. I also think it will be interesting to see if Neville's skills improve now that he has a wand suited to him, and not a hand me down.

How does Harry's reaction to being seen with Neville and Luna compare to a similar scene in OotP? How does this demonstrate the changes in Harry's character?

I agree with Overthemoon on this one. I think that the fact that he now sees Neville and Luna as friends, and not people who could harm his image in front of a girl, speaks loads on how he's matured over the past year. Also, after losing his godfather, he might be starting to value his friendships even more (and realizing that he has friends besides Ron and Hermione).

Does Harry underestimate Draco?

Harry doesn't underestimate Draco in the sense of thinking he could be in with Voldemort, but he definitely underestimates Draco's intelligence and intuition. The scene with Harry sneaking in Draco's car supports some comments from the last chapter, that Harry is still reckless, and acts impulsively. People know that he has an invisibility cloak, so of course when the door gets stuck and then flings open strongly, Draco is going to be smart enough to suspect that someone is in there. Harry acts as if Draco is completely clueless, and he definitely isn't. Someone that manipulative is smart, in a coniving way.

[Type_A_Tiff]

Posted: 3/7/06 at 8:23pm

At last! I'm caught up, except I'm too late to offer anything that hasn't been said by anyone else. Probably easier to lurk rather than sound redunant!

But before I go back into hiding, I just wanted to backtrack a bit here and pose a question to you folks - do you remember in GOF,

"He said my blood would make him stronger than if he'd used someone else's," Harry told Dumbledore. "He said the protection my - my mother left in me - he'd have it, too. And he was right - he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face."

For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triuph in Dumledore's eyes. But next second, Harry was sure he had imagined it... (GOF, p. 604)

JK said this is significant, but from what I recall, HP5 and HP6 don't seem to answer this. Any ideas?

Updated On: 3/7/06 at 08:23 PM

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 3/8/06 at 3:50pm

To Tiff's question: I think that is coming at the very last.

I also think the chapter has been covered very well by everyone else, I will a few things though:

1. To the former arguement about the prejudices between the houses, I think there is a real problem with how the Gryffindores see the Slyterins, this is much like the Auburn vs. Alabama football rivalry, people have been KILLED over that nonsense and I think a major point is that this is wrong. Draco though has proven to be a legitimate concern, to suspect him is pretty necessary.

2. To the issue of Neville addressed here, I think it is the idea that were Neville the one who were marked, he might have the ability to do what Harry does that is interesting. I believe JKR has indicated that Neville is not the object of the prophesy though. I do believe Neville is very important and will have his moment though, and the fact that is somehow linked to Voldemort and Harry is essential in that.

3.I agree with pnd on Harry's concept of Draco, he has such a low opinion of Drace it makes Draco all the more dangerous to him. Draco is shaping up as a valid adversary but at this point Harry still sees him as a bit of a child.

4. That moment with Harry, Neville and Luna on the train is one of my favorite single moments of the entire series. Here we see that Harry has grown, he is loyal. Before he was heroic now he is a Hero.

[Type_A_Tiff]

Posted: 3/8/06 at 4:07pm

Before he was heroic now he is a Hero.


Good one. (I bet you're still patting yourself on the back, right? ) That sums him up well.

When are we moving on to the next chapter? I'm on "The Half-Blood Prince" and I don't want to stop!