Harry Potter Book Club - Chapter 16 A Very Frosty Christmas- Page 6
Harry Potter Book Club - Chapter 16 A Very Frosty Christmas
#125re: Harry Potter Book Club - Starts Monday!
Posted: 2/27/06 at 4:08pm
So far in the book we’ve met two new, important characters Rufus
Scrimgeour and Horace Slughorn. What do you think may be the meaning behind their names?
I already mentioned my thoughts on Srimgeour's name on another page of this thread. I paste that below:
"A "scrim" is a curtain that when lit from the front, nothing can be seen behind the curtain. When the curtain is lit from behind, anything behind the curtain can be seen. Is the good Minister hiding something?"
This was the same thought process I had, but the good people at Mugglenet really put it into words nicely for me.
I think it's important to mention that currently, Scrimgeour is in the spotlight. He's just assumed the position of Minister of Magic and all eyes of the Wizarding Community are on him. The spotlight is in front of him so to speak. If there is any substance to the "scrim" theory, it could stand to reason that we'll learn more about Scrimgeour from someone who is currently behind him.
In regards to Slughorn, before doing any research on it what so ever I thing of slug as "slow" and horn as "loud". Those would be two things that Horace Slughorn resembles actually.
Now..after some research:
Slughorn is an erroneous form of the Scotch word slughorne or sloggorne which means "slogan." Slughorns constant boasting of the list his past students reads almost like a "slogan" for them.
It also should be said that he claims he is still involved and revered by these former students which could also be a slogan for his teaching abilities.
The word slughorn has also showed up in various poems and it is referenced as a brassy type instrument.
Slughorn's personality is certainly brassy.
I have to go back to work now, but I wanted to answer at least one question. 
Updated On: 2/27/06 at 04:08 PM
#126re: Harry Potter Book Club - Starts Monday!
Posted: 2/27/06 at 6:54pm
Has Harry coped any better with being the sole savior of wizardkind than he did as the Boy Who Lived?
Atrias put it nicely, but I would like to add to it. I think that Harry knew ever since his first year that it would be he that would have to defeat Voldemort once and for all. In the Sorcerer's Stone, I think either Ron or Hermione tells him that it has to be him to go to face Voldemort, not either of them. Perhaps that could have been a bit of forshadowing that it has to be Harry in the end? I don't think that Harry realized that it was destined for him to go against Voldemort, but it was fairly obvious that Harry would have to go against him once and for all because of all the pain that Voldemort inflicted on him.
That's getting into later chapters though.
How has Dumbledore's demeanor changed from prior books?
Dumbledore I think realizes that Harry doesn't need to be treated like a child anymore. He has seen so much horror for someone his age that I think Dumbledore respects, so now, instead of sugar coating everything for him, Dumbledore is more honest and a bit harsher in the way he presents things; he realizes that Harry doesn't need to be protected from the truth, so Dumbledore is more truthful with him.
Harry does not particularly like Slughorn. What do you think of him?
I'm not really sure how I feel about Slughorn. During the first time that I read it, I really didn't like him, but when I reread it, I felt a bit more kindly towards him. I think that he makes mistakes, but that he is so eager for people to like him, that he tries to hide them.
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#127re: Harry Potter Book Club - Starts Monday!
Posted: 2/27/06 at 11:53pm
Has Harry coped any better with being the sole savior of wizardkind than he did as the Boy Who Lived?
Most definitely. Harry is not only handling this news better. He is also embracing it.
This is particularly evident when Dumbledore mentions that's the death of Sirius is devastating and Harry has a very mature and determined response.
"But while I was at the Dursleys'..." interrupted Harry, his voice growing stronger, "I realized I can't shut myself away or - or crack up. Sirius wouldn't have wanted that, would he? Any anyway, life's too short....Look at Madam Bones, look at Emmeline Vance....It could be me next, couldn't it? But if it is," he said fiercely, now looking straight into Dumbledore's blue eyes gleaming in the wandlight, "I'll make sure I take as many Death Eaters with me as I can, and Voldemore too if I can manage it."
This type of confidence and willingness to grab on to "his destiny" shows that Harry is growing up and understands that he plays a role in this whether he likes it or not. In the past, Harry has shied away from his celebrity and being a fixture in the war against the Dark Lord and Death eaters - now he is starting to embrace it.
Harry does not particularly like Slughorn. What do you think of him?
At this point in the book it's really too soon to form an opinion. My initial reaction was that he is a bit out there and dishonest with his tales of the role he plays in his former students life. Dumbledore confirms this later in the chapter. His surprise of muggle-born being great wizards/witches initially gives the air of prejudice, but I wonder if it's just an older wizard who is set in his ways of the "old days." He does seem dishonest, but also rather harmless.
How has Dumbledore's demeanor changed from prior books?
Primarily, Dumbledore seems weaker. It is evident with his damaged hand that something has happened and it seems that something has taken a bit out of Dumbledore. He suddenly desires to teach Harry one on one which indicates a bit of urgency that this happens no rather than later. He is also being more frank with Harry which a previous poster listed as being because Harry is older. While I agree that this is part of it, I think it's more important that it's because Dumbledore is older and weaker. There is a sense of urgency with Dumbledore in regards to Harry that hasn't been apparent in the previous novels. He seems less "mysterious" when he is with Harry and more open to discussing and teaching lessons rapidly than in the past. Is this because he feels that with Voldemort being back and at full strength that he needs to teach Harry as much as he can as quickly as possible or is this an indication that Dumbledore is working on a bigger plan? He does seem to be 3 steps ahead of everyone else at all times.
Updated On: 2/28/06 at 11:53 PM
#128re: Harry Potter Book Club - Starts Monday!
Posted: 2/27/06 at 11:56pm
Very nice discussion everyone.
I have some thoughts on these questions, that I want to add, but no real time.
I have a real theory about Slughorn's place in the books, but I don't think we can know it yet. I will just say, I see where he is coming from and actually like him.
I stand corrected, you are as vapid as they say.
Updated On: 2/27/06 at 11:56 PM
#129re: Harry Potter Book Club - Starts Monday!
Posted: 2/27/06 at 11:58pm
I haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about.
#130re: Harry Potter Book Club - Starts Monday!
Posted: 2/28/06 at 12:00am
What is so hard to understand about our buddy Slughorn.
I stand corrected, you are as vapid as they say.
#132re: Harry Potter Book Club - Starts Monday!
Posted: 2/28/06 at 12:05am
*whimpering*
Then fall... Caesar.
I stand corrected, you are as vapid as they say.
anjilly
Stand-by Joined: 11/15/05
#133re: Ch. 4
Posted: 2/28/06 at 1:30am
So far in the book we’ve met two new, important characters Rufus
Scrimgeour and Horace Slughorn. What do you think may be the meaning behind their names?
As Patronus pointed out, "A "scrim" is a curtain that when lit from the front, nothing can be seen behind the curtain. When the curtain is lit from behind, anything behind the curtain can be seen. “
I would just like to add that Rufus means “red”, which can have sinister connotations, eg. blood.
Is our good minister hiding a bloody past?
Also adding on for Slughorn: Horace is derivative from the Latin “hora” or hour/ time/ season.
Has Harry coped any better with being the sole savior of wizardkind than he did as the Boy Who Lived?
Part of Harry’s inability to cope with being “The Boy Who Lived” had to do with the fact that he was famous for something he had no actual hand in. Yes, he lived, but not by any action he took. It felt false to him. Now, six years later, he has fought and won battles against Voldemort and the Death Eaters. He has useful skills that he employs to eke out his successes. He isn’t pleased that the world rests on his shoulders, but at least the recognition is better placed. Coping is a funny thing; he isn’t altogether embracing his fate- regardless of the brave face he puts on for Dumbledore- but he is accepting of it. This I think is born of a maturity that comes naturally with age, and in growing up too fast.
Harry does not particularly like Slughorn. What do you think of him?
Slughorn is a bit of a coward. I tend to agree with Harry’s opinion of him, but it can’t be argued that Slughorn’s connections could be very useful. He is a bit of a paradox; powerful enough to be a Defense professor, but weak of mind and character. It can’t be ignored that he clings to the powerful with a parasitic-like tenacity; one has to wonder just what he’s been privy to through the years.
How has Dumbledore's demeanor changed from prior books?
Ah, Dumbledore. JKR has been giving us hints at the effects of his advanced age for a few books now, as seen through Harry’s eyes. Now there is no pretense; it is said straight out that he has lost a step or two. However, this is clearly not impacting his mind- he is still quite clever and powerful. Just how did he know so quickly that Slughorn was the armchair? I wonder what he sees (literally) that others may not. As others pointed out, there is a sense of urgency about him now. Perhaps he realizes that time is of the essence- or perhaps he realizes that time has always been of the essence but feels that Harry is now old enough to handle that fact. I lean toward the latter, because he treats Harry more like a partner than a pupil- very forthcoming with answers and explanations in contrast to previous books. Dumbledore also recognized in OotP that he made a grave mistake in underestimating Harry- he could also be slightly overcompensating for that now.
Ostriches are rad. Like, really.
Updated On: 2/28/06 at 01:30 AM
#134re: Ch. 4
Posted: 2/28/06 at 11:34am
So far in the book we’ve met two new, important characters Rufus
Scrimgeour and Horace Slughorn. What do you think may be the meaning behind their names?
Great points on the names. I love learning those things.
Harry does not particularly like Slughorn. What do you think of him?
As I said earlier I actually like Slughorn. I think the "brassy" thing is very telling, he is loud and boisterous, and a bit of a coward. But not when he is finally convinced things are right. He is another character that is "neither good nor bad" just complicated and motivated by their own reasons. I think he is an example of a "good slytherin" all of which I can explain better later in the book. 
Has Harry coped any better with being the sole savior of wizardkind than he did as the Boy Who Lived?
I agree completely with almost everything that has been said here, and have nothing to add but Bravo to the combined efforts of Atrias, OTM, Anjilly, and Patronus.
How has Dumbledore's demeanor changed from prior books?
I think his demeanor has not really changed all that much. He treats Harry very differently, and has lost a step as has been pointed out beautifully by Anjilly and Patronus. I don't think he has "changed" though. He has his plan, he knows what is happening, his mental powers (which are the most important ones after all) are as sharp as ever. We see him as more fully realized, and his mistake in holding Harry back is eating at him. His insistence upon kind treatment and respect for others are still his defining characteristics though. Even if it means beating them in the head with teacups.
I stand corrected, you are as vapid as they say.
pndmnd
Broadway Star Joined: 4/3/04
#135re: Ch. 4
Posted: 2/28/06 at 2:49pm
I think that Penguin's "good Slytherin" comment is a good point about Slughorn. Keep in mind that the sorting hat almost put Harry into Slytherin. I think it's one of those many cases where JK R is pointing out that things are not always black or white, but sometimes black AND white.
At this point in the book I don't particularly like Slughorn, but I don't dislike him, either. He definitely shows off, and likes his luxuries, but I agree that his being surprised that a non-pure blood is good at magic is more his being older, and just being surprised, as opposed to prejudice. Remember, Lily was one of his favorites. If he were truly prejudice, it wouldn't have mattered if she was good at magic, he wouldn't have taken to her.
#136re: Ch. 4
Posted: 2/28/06 at 3:14pm
Has Harry coped any better with being the sole savior of wizardkind than he did as the Boy Who Lived?
Most certainly... this has already been answered well by everyone else, particularly Patronus in pointing out that quote (which I love).
Harry does not particularly like Slughorn. What do you think of him?
Ah, Slughorn. I like him as a character--he's interesting. He seems genial enough, but Harry is put on edge by the fact that he was the head of Slytherin and there are indications that he possesses stereotypically Slytherin opinions about the abilities of Muggle-borns. I think it's great that we've finally met a Slytherin who isn't overtly evil or "bad." But it's clear that Slughorn is an opportunist... he avoids joining Voldemort because it clearly wouldn't be in his best interests in terms of worldly comfort. He returns to Hogwarts because Harry inadvertently convinces him that it's the safest place for him to be. He's clearly not lacking in the principle Slytherin trait of ambition, as evidenced by his delight in connecting himself to successful people, but that ambition hasn't led him down the path of dark magic. I think that it's about time that we're breaking past the Slytherin = bad character mold (you could argue that Snape does, as well, but he HAS been on Voldemort's side in the past, and he's never been a particularly likable character).
How has Dumbledore's demeanor changed from prior books?
Oh, I love the progression of Harry and Dumbledore's time together in this chapter, and think that it's very telling for wha's coming in the rest of the book. At first, Harry feels extremely awkward to be seeing Dumbledore again after their very distant relationship of Harry's fifth year and the revelation of the prophecy. I think that prior to this chapter Harry had still been harboring a lot of... well, not resentment, but he'd somewhat lost faith in his relationship with Dumbledore and what an important thing that is. I think that Dumbledore realizes that he has some healing of wounds to do when he decides to come for Harry himself. Most of that seems to be mended right off the bat as Dumbledore demonstrates to Harry that he considers him almost a mix between a colleague and a protegé rather than a typical student, which to me is indicated in part by the fact that this is the first time that they've really been together outside of Hogwarts. Dumbledore is very direct with Harry and avoids condescension in any form, and he is much warmer than he has been in previous books. His affection for Harry borders on grandfatherly, but remains more professional than familial. I was very excited on my initial reading of the book to hear that Harry and Dumbledore would be spending time together in private lessons, since that's the single thing that I missed the most in Order of the Phoenix.
I also completely agree with what others have said in pointing out that there's a sort of urgency that Dumbledore seems to feel in preparing Harry for what's to come. It was noted throughout the last book that Dumbledore is aging (most memorably when Harry noted how old and tired he looked at the end of the prophecy chapter and it was the weakest that he'd ever seen him). The burned hand is certainly foreboding, and the first real sign of weakness or diminishing ability that we've seen from Dumbeldore. Still, Dumbledore's still clearly immensely powerful, but it's clear that now that everything's out in the open with regards to the prophecy, he needs to begin preparing Harry for his final confrontation as soon as possible.
#137re: Ch. 4
Posted: 3/1/06 at 12:10am
Everyone gave such impressive answers to the questions for this chapter! Read their answers.
Just a note for those who were unable to fully answer the question about Dumbledore's demeanor because of chapter limitations, expect that question to pop up a few more times.
Stay tuned Chapter 5 will be posted in the morning.
RENThead414
Broadway Star Joined: 12/1/05
#139random
Posted: 3/1/06 at 12:22amalright...sorry to ask another random question...I was listening to my OoTP audiobooks, and I had a thought. If someone were to drink polyjuice potion with one of Tonk's hairs/toenails/something in it, what would they look like? I've always been confused as to whether or not Tonks actually has her own face/nose/hair/etc, or if she can just change into anything/use any combination of other people's features that she wants to, but has none of her own. *confused* lol if that made any sense...
#140random
Posted: 3/1/06 at 12:24am
Well, they would probably either change into what she looked like at the time that they took the potion, or what she looked like at the time when they took the part of her to be put in the Polyjuice potion.
What if they did that with Lupin on the full moon. Would they turn into a werewolf?
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#141random
Posted: 3/1/06 at 12:29am
I am pretty certain there is a look that is the "real" Tonks, the small nose and mousey brown hair. That would be what her "DNA" so to speak is, and that would be what a person taking the Polyjuice potion would look like.
Lupin at the full moon is a different story, technically they would be using "animal hair" which we know does not work.
I stand corrected, you are as vapid as they say.
#146random
Posted: 3/1/06 at 1:08am
Ack. I also prefer not to think about the end.
I would say the potion "does not work" if it is animal hair, since the "one hour" limitation is also gone, and there is no indication Hermione looked like Millicent's cat, just a cat in general, but not enough to actually "be" it.
I stand corrected, you are as vapid as they say.
#148Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Posted: 3/1/06 at 8:29am
Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Harry is welcomed to the Burrow by Molly, who is waiting up for Arthur to return home from work. She tells Harry that Arthur has been promoted to the Head of the Office for the Detection and Confiscation of Counterfeit Defensive Spells and Protective Objects. The next morning Harry is awakened by Ron and Hermione and learns that Fleur Delacour is also staying at the Burrow because she is engaged to Bill Weasley. Harry tells Ron and Hermione about his forthcoming private lessons with Dumbledore and about what the Prophecy said. The Trio’s OWL results arrive
leaving Harry a little upset because his Potions grade is not high enough to continue with Snape’s class, dashing his hopes of becoming an Auror.
*Discussion Questions*
Why do you think Molly and Arthur are so serious about following thesafety instructions from the Ministry? Is it just the given reason,that Arthur needs to set an example as a Ministry employee?
Why do you think Molly resents Fleur? Why do you think Ginny resents Fleur?
Ron and Hermione act strangely around Harry when they see him. Why do you think that is?
We finally get to see the Trio’s OWL results. Were you surprised by any of their grades?
Thank you to Smartpenguin78 for his help on the questions.
Updated On: 3/1/06 at 08:29 AM
#149Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Posted: 3/1/06 at 4:03pm
Why do you think Molly and Arthur are so serious about following the safety instructions from the Ministry? Is it just the given reason that Arthur needs to set an example as a Ministry employee?
Well, Molly isn't that serious about it. She acts as if she doesn't see the point. She didn't ask Dumbledore for the safety questions when he arrived with Harry and she expressed some resistance with Arthur when he arrived home from work.
I think Arthur is sincerely wanting to set an example in his new higher up post.
I think that the really interesting aspect of all this is that it's proof of how much Molly puts her families well being ahead of own. We learned via the Boggart changing rapidly from one loved one to another dead in OotP that he worst fear is losing her children and family. This is further proven by her clock that indicates whether or not people are in danger.
I wonder if Ron had opened the door in the same manner without going through the motions if Molly would have had a "Howler" worthy fit.
Why do you think Molly resents Fleur? Why do you think Ginny resents Fleur?
Like me, I think she hates the French. That's a joke.
I don't think she feels that Fleur is good enough for her son. Ginny resents Fleur because all the guys go crazy over her because of her looks and Ginny strikes me as the top that would despise that mentality and those types of girls in general. She is also irritated that Fluer treats her like a child.
Ron and Hermione act strangely around Harry when they see him. Why do you think that is?
The rumors about the prophecy and how to approach him regarding Sirius' death. They aren't sure what to believe and how he feels about it and I think they are quite apprehensive to confront him and are rather waiting for him to take the lead in that conversation.
We finally get to see the Trio’s OWL results. Were you surprised by any of their grades?
Harry getting a decent grade in Potions was a bit surprising. Also, that Hermione didn't get perfect ratings across the board was a bit of a shock.
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