Harry Potter Book Club - Chapter 16 A Very Frosty Christmas- Page 7
Harry Potter Book Club - Chapter 16 A Very Frosty Christmas
#150Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Posted: 3/1/06 at 4:37pm
ok so I have now read the first 5 chapters so I can join in the discussion. It was hard to have to put the book down though.
Why do you think Molly and Arthur are so serious about following the safety instructions from the Ministry? Is it just the given reason that Arthur needs to set an example as a Ministry employee?
I agree that Molly is not all that serious about it and thinks that the recommendations of the Ministry will no treally help. I think she think, as does Dumboldore, that it is just to make people feel like they are doing something.
I think Arthur feels the same, but feels like it is his duty to try and set a good example and show he is serious about doing all in his power to keep his family safe.
Why do you think Molly resents Fleur? Why do you think Ginny resents Fleur?
Molly resents Fleur for the same reason many women resent their future daughter-in-laws, she doesn't believe she will be able to do as well taking care of Bill.
Ginny resents Fleur mostly because she is beauty without much brains to go along with it, at least on the surface. Also, Ginny has been forced to grow up quickly and really hates being treated like a child again. The guys all pay too much attention to Fleur just because of her looks. Ginny is the complete package of what guys should want and she knows it, not in the I'm better than others way, but deep down she knows that she is the kind of girl guys should end up with. She just hates that males don't seem to know this yet.
Ron and Hermione act strangely around Harry when they see him. Why do you think that is?
They do not want to upset him by talking about the possibility of him being the Chosen One. I think they know that Harry knows more than he is letting on, and after how he acted towards them in previous situations about big things, they do not want to upset him. They are curious but care more about their friend's feelings than finding out what really happened.
We finally get to see the Trio’s OWL results. Were you surprised by any of their grades?
I was not too surprised. I knew that Harry would have to do better than expected in Potions because I don't think him becoming an Auror is out of the picture at all. Maybe Prof McGonagall will find a way for it to work out.
I was expecting Hermione to get an E in something, and was glad it was Defense Agaisnt the Dark Arts. That is the sunject that Harry has always exceled a little more than the others in and I think it is proper for him to do better than even the brain of their group.
#151Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Posted: 3/1/06 at 6:56pm
Why do you think Molly resents Fleur? Why do you think Ginny resents Fleur?
This is the first of her children to get married, so it is probably a little bit sad for her to think that Bill won't be her little boy anymore, and that she won't be the only woman in his life. She also thinks that Fleur isn't good enough for him. I think Ginny hates her because of the way boys act around her, and I agree with Patronus, that she doesn't really like the type of girl that Fleur is (I don't think she really liked Cho, either). Hermione doesn't like her, obviously, because Ron is attracted to her, and we all know that Hermione has feelings for Ron. Yes, I know that wasn't asked, but still...
Ron and Hermione act strangely around Harry when they see him. Why do you think that is?
I think they remember all too well how Harry acted the previous summer, when he was thinking about Cedric's death, and I don't think they really knew what to say. They probably didn't know what would upset him, so they were careful around him.
We finally get to see the Trio’s OWL results. Were you surprised by any of their grades?
I wasn't that surprised. I knew Hermione would do well, and it has to be made quite clear that she is not as good as Harry in DADA, so I didn't expect her to get an O in that, but besides that, everything was how I expected it to be.
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pndmnd
Broadway Star Joined: 4/3/04
#152Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Posted: 3/1/06 at 10:01pm
I agree with Patronus, Caitesus, and OvertheMoon, so I'm just going to piggy-back and add a couple of things.
Why do you think Molly resents Fleur? Why do you think Ginny resents Fleur?
Along with what has previously been posted, I think there are very few women that Molly would feel are good enough for any of her boys (and very few boys that she would feel are good enough for her daughter). As for Ginny, Fleur really treats her as if she's as young as Gabrielle, when in fact she's a few years older. Ginny is only a year younger than the trio, and has now been in battle right along side them. I also think that all of the women (Molly, Ginny, and Hermione) probably don't trust Fleur in part due to the fact that she is part Veela. I would imagine that they get annoyed by the effect that she has on Ron, and worry that that is why Bill is with her, too.
We finally get to see the Trio’s OWL results. Were you surprised by any of their grades?
The only grade I'm surprised about is that they did as well as they did in Astronomy, given the attack that was going on during their practical exam.
#153Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Posted: 3/2/06 at 8:15pm
Why do you think Molly and Arthur are so serious about following the safety instructions from the Ministry? Is it just the given reason,that Arthur needs to set an example as a Ministry employee?
I agree with Patronus on this one, Molly cares much more for her family's safty than for her own. I think that Arthur wants to believe the saftey measures will work, that the Ministy is actually doing something. He insists upon the standards, because he needs to feel validated in implementing them. Molly only trusts her own judgement, and intuition.
Why do you think Molly resents Fleur? Why do you think Ginny resents Fleur?
I think there is a general assumption that Fleur is "using" Bill, and does not really care for him. At least not enough for Molly, since family is the most important thing to her, she wants all of the people in the family to feel the same way.
All of the girls are shown to have a somewhat unwarranted hatred of Fleur from the very first time she shows up, yes she can be obnoxious, but there is a since that she is being discrimated against due to her looks. She treats Ginny like a child though, so it is true Ginny may have better reasons to dislike her.
Ron and Hermione act strangely around Harry when they see him. Why do you think that is?
They are very concerned that he will be angry with them like he was before, especially since his last experience was even more traumatic. It is also very evident in this time that we are supposed to notice just how close Ron and Hermione have become. They have nonverbal communication and inside jokes that Harry is not privy too.
We finally get to see the Trio’s OWL results. Were you surprised by any of their grades?
I was not surprised by the Astronomy grades, I was actually hoping they would have given them all a "pass" because of etenuating circumstances.
I was a bit upset by Hermione NOT getting an "O" in DAtDA, I feel like she should not be moved down in an attempt to move Harry up. I can't believe her work was not of the same quality in that class as all the others, and I don't think it should be heirarchincal- Harry and Hermione should both have O's.
I stand corrected, you are as vapid as they say.
Updated On: 3/2/06 at 08:15 PM
#154Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Posted: 3/2/06 at 8:34pm
It won't let me edit my last post.
"hierarchical" 
I stand corrected, you are as vapid as they say.
#155Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Posted: 3/2/06 at 8:38pmYea, but Harry had to get higher than her, so he couldn't have gotten an O+. She scored lower than Harry on a DADA test in POA, too, I think.
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#156Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Posted: 3/2/06 at 8:41pm
Yes she did, but I don't like that aspect. Hermione is a better student than Harry and I see it as a little cheap that she gets moved down for him to move up.
They should have both gotten O's.
I stand corrected, you are as vapid as they say.
#157Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Posted: 3/2/06 at 8:46pmYes I suppose. But, having Hermione get better than Harry on everything is a little unfair (everything in schoolwork, that is).
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#158Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Posted: 3/2/06 at 8:48pmIt isn't unfair, Harry is skilled in different ways. And hardly ever puts any effort into his work. I often think he should do a little better, but Hermione rightly does better in most things.
I stand corrected, you are as vapid as they say.
#159Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Posted: 3/2/06 at 8:50pm
Yes, but Hermione also acts childish when she's not the best.
Look at POA, when she quit Divination purely because the subject didn't come easily to her.
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#160Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Posted: 3/2/06 at 8:56pmShe quit Divination because she was overworked and the entire subject is nonsense.
I stand corrected, you are as vapid as they say.
#161Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Posted: 3/2/06 at 8:58pmShe only found it nonsense because she wasn't good at it. She didn't like the fact that you had to be naturally good at it, and she wasn't, so she dismissed the entire subject.
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#162Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Posted: 3/2/06 at 9:02pm
McGonagall, Dumbledore, Harry, Ron, and others ALL find the subject to be nonsense.
It was far more than a lack of "natural ability" that caused her to dismiss the subject.
It is a load of crap.
The actual predictions have nothing to do with the subject of divination.
I stand corrected, you are as vapid as they say.
#163Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Posted: 3/2/06 at 9:05pmWell, she's probably not naturally gifted at DADA the way Harry is. She doesn't really respond well to pressure.
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#164Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Posted: 3/2/06 at 9:07pm
"Well, she's probably not naturally gifted at DADA the way Harry is. She doesn't really respond well to pressure."
OvertheMoon, I have to disagree with this. Time after time Hermione has shown that she responds very well under pressure. For example in SS she was able to figure out the logic problem Snape came up with. In OotP she does just as well as everyone else at fighting the Death Eaters. We also know that Hermione tests very well.
However you are correct that she is not as naturally gifted at DADA as Harry, but that doesn't mean that she shouldn't have gotten an O too. The point is moot of course, but I was very surprised to see that Hermione did not get an O.
Updated On: 3/3/06 at 09:07 PM
#165Chapter 5 An Excess of Phlegm
Posted: 3/3/06 at 8:37am
Why do you think Molly and Arthur are so serious about following the safety instructions from the Ministry? Is it just the given reason,that Arthur needs to set an example as a Ministry employee?
I like what Patronus said about what Molly would do if Ron had tried to open the door without following the Ministry approved procedure. I agree with everyone who mentioned that Molly is much more concerned about her family's safety than her own. I also like what Penguin said about Arthur wanting to believe that the Ministry's recommendations will work.
Personally I think the Ministry's safety procedures have a very "duck and cover" air about them.
Why do you think Molly resents Fleur? Why do you think Ginny resents Fleur?
I agree with pretty much everyone on this one. Nothing to add here.
Ron and Hermione act strangely around Harry when they see him. Why do you think that is?
Again I agree with most people here. Ron and Hermione are unsure of what to expect from Harry, especially after his out of control anger the year before.
"It is also very evident in this time that we are supposed to notice just how close Ron and Hermione have become. They have nonverbal communication and inside jokes that Harry is not privy too."
Wonderful observation Penguin
We finally get to see the Trio’s OWL results. Were you surprised by any of their grades?
I, like Penguin was surprised to see that Hermione did not make an O in DADA.
Updated On: 3/3/06 at 08:37 AM
#166Chapter 6 Draco’s Detour
Posted: 3/3/06 at 9:21am
Chapter 6 Draco’s Detour
Harry settles into life at the Burrow enjoying himself despite learning of various deaths and disappearances. Harry, Hermione, and the Weasleys go to Diagon Alley to buy school supplies. While there the trio runs into Draco Malfoy and his mother. Later at Fred and George’s store Harry sees Draco walking down the street alone. The trio gets under the invisibility cloak and follows him to Knockturn Alley. They overhear Draco talking to Mr. Borgin at Borgin and Burkes and telling him not to sell something.
*Discussion Questions*
How does the Narcissa we see in this chapter compare to the Narcissa of Chapter 2?
Harry automatically assumes that Draco is up to something when he sees him walking alone. He’s right, but what does this say about Harry?
Do you think that Harry truly appreciates the dangers he is facing? Do you think that the Ministry is being too cautious?
Have a good weekend everyone! A new chapter will be posted on Monday, until then take time to catch up and throw out any questions or comments you have about the first 6 chapters.
Updated On: 3/3/06 at 09:21 AM
#167Chapter 6 Draco’s Detour
Posted: 3/3/06 at 9:57am
Oh, I missed getting to post on the last chapter! Where does the time go? Anyway, I'll be out of town, but I'll pick back up when I get back.
One final thing about the last chapter-- I know it's sort of petty, but on a personal level I was thrilled that Hermione didn't get all Os on her OWLs. While maybe it's a stretch as far as what we know of her academic prowess (I would argue that it isn't, but I can see the other side as well), Hermione had me positively pulling my hair out in Order of the Phoenix with her annoying overperfection. Does she EVER make mistakes? Is she ever wrong about ANYTHING? I find myself most invested in characers who have flaws and seem like real people... and OotP Hermione doesn't. I was so, so happy that Rowling made Hermione a tad more realistic in HBP... she has bouts of immaturity, she can be petty at times, etc. I was actually able to like her.
Updated On: 3/3/06 at 09:57 AM
#168Chapter 6 Draco’s Detour
Posted: 3/3/06 at 6:51pm
How does the Narcissa we see in this chapter compare to the Narcissa of Chapter 2?
Narcissa in this chapter is a lot more collected than she was at Snape's house in chapter two. Where before she was sobbing and shrieking, she is calm and in control in front of people she doesn't really trust. She taunts Harry about Sirius' death, but I suspect this is out of rage for Harry putting Lucius in Azkaban.
Harry automatically assumes that Draco is up to something when he sees him walking alone. He’s right, but what does this say about Harry?
This says that Harry hasa prejudice against Draco (or anyone in Slytherin, really), and that he is judgemental and jumps to conclusions. I think he assumes that anyone in Slytherin is in league with Voldemort, which is immature of him.
And I misphrased my comment about Hermione; she does respond well to pressure, but, and we'll see more of this as time goes on in this book, she gets crabby and childish when she isn't the best.
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#169Chapter 6 Draco’s Detour
Posted: 3/3/06 at 6:57pm
This says that Harry hasa prejudice against Draco (or anyone in Slytherin, really), and that he is judgemental and jumps to conclusions. I think he assumes that anyone in Slytherin is in league with Voldemort, which is immature of him.
I don't have time to comment totally because I am on a short break at work, but I have to say that I completely disagree with this.
I don't find Harry to be prejudice, but rather vigilant. I don't have the book in front of me, but the way Harry descibed Slughorn to Ron and Herminone in Chapter 5 proves that Harry isn't automatically assuming that Slytherin automatically means bad.
Besides, in previous books Draco has shown that he supports his father and his beliefs and it's well known that Lucious is in cahoots with the Dark Lord. It isn't prejudice if the person who you are accusing has admitted to the accusation.
Harry is simply cautious giving the troubled times they are in and rightfully so.
Updated On: 3/3/06 at 06:57 PM
#170Chapter 6 Draco’s Detour
Posted: 3/3/06 at 7:10pm
It also states somewhere in one of the books that Gryffindor and Slytherin students loathed eachother on principle. So he is prejudiced against them all. And Harry is no exception.
And Hagrid probably didn't help the fact, because in Sorcerer's Stone, he said "there's not a witch or wizard who went bad that wasn't from Slytherin" or something like that.
Harry assumed that Draco was up to something merely because he didn't trust him. So he jumped to conclusions. He happened to be right, but still, Draco could have been doing something completely innocent.
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#171Chapter 6 Draco’s Detour
Posted: 3/3/06 at 7:38pm
While there may be an argument that Harry has a prejudice against Slytherins in general, there is no such case for Draco. Harry knows Draco, and knows Draco is often up to no good. The fact that Harry just did face to face battle with Lucious is also important to note. This is not irrational suspicion. From the moment Harry met Draco, it has been evident to both they are on opposite sides of the coin.
Sure Draco could have been up to something innocent, until he went straight to the heart of the dark arts. It seems like vigilence to me as well.
I stand corrected, you are as vapid as they say.
Updated On: 3/3/06 at 07:38 PM
#172Chapter 6 Draco’s Detour
Posted: 3/3/06 at 7:48pmAh well, agree to disagree.
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#173Chapter 6 Draco’s Detour
Posted: 3/3/06 at 9:18pm
Overthemoon6 said:
It also states somewhere in one of the books that Gryffindor and Slytherin students loathed eachother on principle. So he is prejudiced against them all. And Harry is no exception.
End quote.
Loathed is a harsh word. They don't get along and there are years of hostility between the two houses, but I think for most of the students who aren't directly involved in the conflict of good vs. evil it's a loathing more akin to Harvard vs. Yale or Yankees vs. Red Sox.
I acknowledge that there is hatred there and I don't mean to understate it, but given all that Harry has been through at the hands of Slytherin and Slytherin alumni, I think we can understand his motivations to assume the worst when he sees Draco going into Knockturn Alley.
There are two common definitions of prejudice. The first is an adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
Harry has plenty of facts as to why it's justified to suspect Draco is up to something unsavory.
The other definition is irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
Again, it's tough to argue that Harry's suspicion is irrational given Draco (and his father's) history.
Overthemoon6 said:
And Hagrid probably didn't help the fact, because in Sorcerer's Stone, he said "there's not a witch or wizard who went bad that wasn't from Slytherin" or something like that.
End quote.
The example of Hagrid is arguably justified. While I personally don't view it as prejudice as much as ignorance (and it could be argued that the two are the same) he was obviously misspeaking as Sirius Black was a Gryffindor student who at the time every thought he had went bad. (We later learn that it was in fact Peter Pettigrew who was also in Gryffindor)
Even though it was fairly early in HP&SS we've learned enough about Hagrid through the last 5 years to know that he isn't the most intelligent character in the series and has a tendency to jump to conclusions and is often a bit hyperbolic.
Overthemoon6 said:
Harry assumed that Draco was up to something merely because he didn't trust him. So he jumped to conclusions. He happened to be right, but still, Draco could have been doing something completely innocent.
End quote.
That's true, but I still find it difficult to justify that as being prejudice or even extreme behavior. For instance, if a fellow or student/co-worker of yours had a father who was a known murderer and that student/co-worker also states that he sees nothing wrong with his father's behavior and in facts looks forward to living his life that way as well, PLUS has tried to create problems in your life many times in the past and you see him walking into a gun store in your neighborhood, are you going to assume that his intentions are positive?
Draco's affiliation with Slytherin here is really inconsequential. The issue is that this is a bad kid who has a storied history of being bad going to a bad place in a very bad time. I just can't see justifying Harry's actions as being anything but intelligent and forth thinking.
Updated On: 3/3/06 at 09:18 PM
#174Chapter 6 Draco’s Detour
Posted: 3/4/06 at 3:26am
Yes, it's in a later chapter (chapter 7), but on Page 143, it says "Zabini did not make any sign of recognition or greeting, nor did Harry or Neville: Gryffindor and Slytherin students loathed eachother on principle."
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