How did it all begin? (the universe) I'm serious- Page 3

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 1:10pm

Oh, when you put it that way that makes perfect sense.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 1:11pm

i knew you'd come around, namo.

[Elphaba]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 1:12pm

well best, perhaps God needs to give me a roast......

[Jane2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 1:13pm

i'm fine with joking around, that's why I suggested it. I'm just trying to watch AMC, eat lunch, put away laundry, and post here at the same time!

[best12bars]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 1:16pm

Jane2---God, you're multitasking today.

Elphaba---You may want a roast, but God sent you this lemon to help you eat better.

[Jane2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 1:18pm

Best 12-Lord knows, I try

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 1:21pm

When God gives you lemons...

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 1:23pm

I don't have a lot to weigh in on the "How did it all start?" debate, given that I'm an atheist who doesn't believe that science adequately has (or possibly will) explained the origins of the universe. I do plan on checking out some of the book recommendations, though.

The MAIN reason that I wanted to respond was that I wanted to commend Aigoo and CostumeMistress for resisting what seems to be the huge pressure to come down on one side or the other of the Evolution/Creation debate. It boggles my mind how so many people seem to be unable to comprehend that maybe life evolved while being guided by some higher power, and that evolution is the mechanism by which God created life as we know it. As a biology major, any theory that completely rejects the idea that life evolved is honestly completely ridiculous to me. I just don't understand why science and religion ALWAYS seem to be at odds. It's sort of disheartening, actually.

[Katt]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 1:34pm

Someone gave us a speech about this at camp. He handed a box of telephone parts to a kid, and told him to shake it up while he talked. When he was done, he asked if the box of parts was a telephone again. Of course it wasn't. He said that someone had to have created it, because things just don't randomly assembly together, like the box of telephone parts. The odds of the Big Bang Theory happening are so astronomical that they cannot even be calculated.

Although, at the same time, I feel that just because the Bible says that God created the universe in seven days, does not have to mean literally seven days. Each "day" could have been a million years.
Updated On: 2/20/06 at 01:34 PM

[Jane2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 1:34pm

Well, first I was happy to see you said "maybe" about your theory. But then you said that people who reject your idea on the topic are ridiculous.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 1:41pm

"Someone gave us a speech about this at camp."

I can honestly say that I haven't been part of a conversation that included a sentence like that in 35 years.

[Katt]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 1:42pm

It's a Christian camp.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 1:46pm

...and one time, at christian camp...

[Katt]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 1:47pm

It's not that bad. Although I did make it sound like that I suppose.
Updated On: 2/20/06 at 01:47 PM

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 1:51pm

I said that theories that refuse to acknowledge evolution seem ridiculous to me. "Ridiculous" really isn't a good word, and I regret having used it, rather I meant that I can't wrap my head around them. There's a pretty overwhelming amount of evidence to suggest that evolution happens on at least some levels, and I can't see denying that that contributes in at least some way.

Of course, no one really knows for sure, and it could be that the scientific explanations for things are completely misleading and wrong. I didn't mean to assert my beliefs as being correct (those aren't, in fact, my beliefs), but I meant to say that I appreciate that not everyone believes scientific and religious explanations to be mutually exclusive. I'm sorry to have offended anyone.

[wexy]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 1:52pm

I'm not sure but I'm almost certain it was on a Tuesday.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 1:54pm

PLEASE tell me that at that camp people attempted to walk on the swimming pool water?

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 1:55pm

flute, crucifix...it's all good, willow.

[justthefacts2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 2:33pm

Thanks for clarifying that, Sweetestsiren. I went to Catholic elementary school and high school - actually, several in several states - and that's where I learned about evolution. It was pretty much taught as fact and no one - no clergy or lay who taught at those schools - ever suggested evolution contradicted our faith. We just understood that God was the Prime Mover, of course. We were also taught that the "seven days" was not literally seven days.

[Aigoo]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 2:36pm

Namo, I thought that I addressed your question to begin with in my original post, but it seems that other posters had cleared it up.

God is just simply THE beginning, and the end. (S)He had been there from the start and CREATED the beginning of time.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 2:44pm

Or by the same leap of faith, there was nothing and things sprang into existence.
Or things have always been, the universe is an eternal cycle of death and rebirth.

(The telephone speech, much like the "anthill" speech to show why God would become Jesus, is based on a flawed presupposition. In the telephone speech that things are "Random if not controlled" must assume that our knowledge of science is that the laws are random, that is not the case, most things are measurable, that could happen with or without tinkering. We only think it must be forced to be because WE are limited that way.

Just as with the "anthill" (which presupposes there is a God, and then decides how that God must act) WE cannot see inside the anthill so would like to become and ant and learn. God however is more than that, God is both observer and creator, ant and human and hill at once. There is no reason to believe this external being would need to enter the anthill as a "christ" at all.)

[Mama Mo]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 3:34pm

This is a fascinating and completely intriguing topic. I came here to get information about theatre and discover this wonderful thread! Thank you so much for starting it.

I am the product of a Catholic school education. Having said that, I also must tell you that I was regularly ejected from religion classes for asking too many questions. I couldn't understand why I was being taken out of the class because I never saw that my questions were ever putting their teaching into question. I simply offered suggestions for how things may have come about. This was my theory as a child and it remains my theory to this day:

Time as we (humans) measure it is based on the orbit of the sun around the earth. The bible, which is the basis for most of these discussions of creation, refers to the universe we know as being created in 7 days. What was a day? The authors use of the word defies logic because, again based on their words, initially there was no sun (light) or earth. So what was a 'day'?

I think (and the original question only proves it) that humans can only really grasp something when they can measure it. When the object (or subject) is beyond measuring, then it becomes mysterious and disturbing. It was easier for the original authors of the bible to divide creation into measurable 'days'. Not only did this make writing the story easier, it made it easier to grasp for the reader.

The whole subject of 'eternity' and something (God) having no beginning and no end so disturbed me as a child that I used to have recurring dreams. In these dreams I'd be walking along the top edge of an enormously high wall. The wall was made of red bricks and was only as wide as a brick was long. The wall was so high that I couldn't see the ground from either side. It also was so long that I could look forward or backward and only see the wall, winding off into nothingness. The sky above me was a brilliant blue and filled with fluffy white clouds. The incredible thing about this dream was that it wasn't the least bit disturbing to me. In fact, it was just the opposite. I found it to be very calming and soothing. It was suggested to me after a few years that it might have been my subconscious showing me what eternity was. No beginning, no ending, and absolutely nothing to worry about. I believe them.

Like others here, I don't believe that the scientific and religious theories of creation cancel each other out. Remove the measuring stick - 'DAY' - and see if they don't agree. God created the universe by way of the big bang. Each element of the universe was then created in turn - not in an easily described 24 hour day, but over millenia. Millenia for us - but only a blink in the eye of God. The last day, when God created man in his own image, continues right now.

I have complete faith in the existence of God. I have absolutely no faith in organized religions. I say this only because these religions were organized by human beings, mostly well-meaning human beings, who were basically flawed. All human beings are flawed. (Some more so than others.) Why? Because we're still cooking. We're just not done cooking yet. The evolution continues.

[Jane2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 3:45pm

beautiful post, Mo, and I'm glad you're happy for my thread. I can accept basically everything you said with a few reservations. When I say the human mind can't conceive of 'nothing', time isn't a factor. What I do is picture the heavens in my mind, and then I try to picture nothing there, as if the heavens and planets were removed. It can't be done, because there's nothing to picture! The mind cannot picture a vacuum.

So, now I leave it to faith that there was in fact, nothing. NOTHING. Not even God. There had to be that first day when God appeared to start creating, if indeed, he did. I have come to see that there is no answer to my question and I have to go along with the theory that something was always there.

[Mama Mo]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 3:50pm

My only argument here is that you're still trying to put a measuring stick on God. You want there to be a beginning - a 'time' when there was no God, no heaven, no nothing and then it all started. I'm just saying, remove the stick. Let faith allow you to accept the fact that 'beginning' and 'end' are human terms only. Then throw them out because they don't apply. Once I allowed my faith to believe that God truly had no beginning - the wall dreams stopped. I haven't had one in almost 40 years now.

[Jane2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 3:52pm

Mo, I can't do that. I wish I could. Lots of things would be easier in life if I didn't have to analyze them. Plus, let me add that I'm not 100% convinced that God created everything from scratch. I'm not sure it isn't all scientific.