How did it all begin? (the universe) I'm serious

[Jane2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 10:47am

I often try to think about when there was nothing. I mean before there was heaven, stars, planets-ANYTHING. I don't think the human mind is able to imagine "nothing". I know I can't imagine it, no matter how hard I try.

I know there is the belief that God created the heavens and earth, etc. But what was here before God came? Don't say he was always here, because there had to be the day before he arrived (lol).

And for those who don't believe that God created everything-those who believe in evolution, or the big bang theory-what was here before that happened? there had to be one day when the first tiny little atom or the first star, or the heavens arrived. Before that day, what was here, and how did the first tiny atom appear, and where did it come from?

I really spend a lot of time thinking about this. I have this discussion with many friends and the only answer I've gotten is "It was always here." I don't know any astronomers-I'll bet they have an answer.

If anyone wants to give some thought to this I'd love to hear different ideas.

[justthefacts2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 11:02am

Jane2, we are kindred spirits. That's the kind of thing I spend a lot of time thinking about, as well. I'm afraid I will be one of those people who will say God always existed. But I don't see how something can come from utter nothing. If nothing held the potential of something, it would no longer be nothing. The fact that "something" would one day exist is itself a negation of the nothing. If ever there were true nothing, there would be nothing now. That is the awesome horror of the void.

[Jane2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 11:07am

thanks for your reply, justthefacts. Isn't it perplexing? If you try to imagine nothing, your brain simply can't go there. As I do believe in one God, I believe it to be spiritual, and lives in all of us. So that isn't how I think everything started. Scientifically, can we ever know what happened? It was too long ago, to say the least. I'm dying to hear what an astronomer believes.

[slimandslam]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 11:12am

Well, like any good ex-bookstore clerk, I'm gonna recommend a couple of books I haven't read: Steven Weinberg's The First Three Minutes, and John D. Barrow's The Origin of the Universe.

The topic is also addressed in Steven Hawking's A Brief History of Time and Paul Davies' The Last Three Minutes (a book concerning conjectures on the end of the universe). All of these books are written for the layman (though the cosmology and physics can get somewhat detailed).

As you can guess, these books are all firmly on board the Big Bang train when it comes to thinking about how the universe began. Other posters may be able to recommend books explaining an alternate view.

I apologize for not being smart enough to figure out how to incorporate links to these books' Amazon entries.

[CostumeMistress]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 11:13am

I've made no secret of my religious beliefs around here, so it shouldn't be a huge shock that I believe in a God who created the universe.

I always go to a Martin Luther quote - "Your thoughts of God are too human." Frankly, I don't think that the whole concepts of time and space in their infinity are things that we as human creatures are able to even begin to wrap our minds around. Still, it's stretching to try to comprehend it all - it really leaves me with a sense of wonder.

Those are just my musings... but I always love to just sit and listen to what others have to say about the topic. Thoughts of the scope of our existence are really quite fascinating and make for some pretty interesting chats.

Updated On: 2/20/06 at 11:13 AM

[Aigoo]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 11:15am

God created everything, including time. It's a bit perplexing for our minds to wrap around this, but I believe that God created EVERYTHING. It just STARTED.

I look at it this way:

There's the big bang. And there's God.

The Big Bang theory basically states that all this..STUFF came from one random...hit. Just, by chance, everything that you see here developed and evolved from that bang.

However, I believe God created the world because it's much easier to put my faith in someone coming along and creating this rather than it happening by chance. It's like asking yourself what is a more probable situation of a candle setting fire: someone coming along to ignite it, or it spontaneously combusting?

And...oddly enough, I do believe in evolution. However, it is the THEORY of evolution, not yet the FACT of evolution. And I think that evolution in itself is just a blueprint that God created...and everything up till this moment has happened according to one big plan. But that doesn't mean that your "fate" is set in stone. It means that God has a plan, but the decisions you make still...affect where you end up.

But I'm taking this in another direction. Those are my thoughts...

[CostumeMistress]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 11:18am

Aigoo - I call myself a Creatilutionist, also believing that the two theories can coexist.

[justthefacts2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 11:19am

Here's a shout out to astronomers. I'm with you - I'd love to get an astronomer's input. For me, the spirit that lives in all of us is not separate from the "out there". It is a part of it. Do you remember Carl Sagan on "Cosmos"? He said, "Man is how the universe comes to know itself. We are made of star stuff." I know I didn't remember it perfectly - maybe I'll google that quote later.

I think you're looking for the most scientific theory there is, though, and not in metaphysical terms. I don't know whether there is one, but I would love to search for it with you over the course of this thread. Some physicists have theorized that the universe that we know is a bubble, and what is outside of the bubble - which is the same, I guess, as saying what was "before". For that matter, since time is a part of the universe, could there even be a "before"?

[Jane2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 11:32am

I always thought the big bang theory stated that there was a collision with the sun, am I right? Even if it wasn't the sun, there was a collision or a breaking away from something that was already there. I want to know how the originals got there.

Slim thanks so much for the recommendations-I'll look into them for sure!

Justthefacts-Very interesting. So you're saying that this universe, inside its bubble, isn't the only thing that may exist? That around the bubble is the nothing that came before? Stilll-how did our universe start? who and what came out of where when there was nothing, and started something?

You could actually laugh at my questions, the way I'm asking them!

[Elphaba]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 12:03pm

I guess I've always been more concerned with what we do with our home, Earth, now that we ARE here....rather than what started it all.
Pondering the meaning and beginnings of life doesn't allow me to help anyone......getting involved with my home (earth), does.

Jane, don't take that the wrong way, please...I am not knocking how you feel....just explaining that for me, it's never been an issue........

[Jane2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 12:05pm

But Elphaba, my thread is about how it all started.

[best12bars]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 12:05pm

I wanted to say, "It all began with an Overture, of course."

...but now I'm going to give it more thought after reading these posts.

[justthefacts2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 12:09pm

I would never laugh at such questions. They're the most important questions there are.

If I remember (and I think I did read "The Origins of the Universe" - if it's the one I'm thinking of - it may not be, since I read it about 20 years ago) Anyway, if I remember, the Big Bang theory suggests that all matter at one time existed compacted into a tiny space - an infintitessimally tiny pin****we couln't imagine the smallness of - and it became so dense and so superheated that it suddenly exploded (the Big Bang). With that explosion all the particles and subparticles of matter spread out from that tiny origin, at first evenly distributed. The farther the particles went they began to slow down and to cool off. It was a rippling out effect. The first element was hydrogen - hydrogen is the simplest element, having only 1 proton, 1 electron and 1 neutron. All the oldest stars of the universe are hydrogen stars. But as the particles cooled and slowed and fell into each other they formed heavier elements - for instance helium with 2 of everything. Helium stars are not "first stars", I believe. The elements get progressively more dense as their atomic counts get higher. Anyway, this is the way the stars, and then the galaxies and everything else formed. Where we are now is in some outer ripple that is still moving away from that first point of origin, still slowing and cooling. Astronomers speculate on how far we will continue to ripple out. So your question, I guess, would be where did that first subparticle of matter come from that eventually grew into the tiny pin****that exploded? But can something just "pop into being" out of nothing?

Updated On: 2/20/06 at 12:09 PM

[Jane2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 12:09pm

I'm really sorry that the thread can't stick to the topic. Maybe this is something that we just have to accept here. thanks, Best 12, I hope to hear from you about this.

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 12:10pm

*brain implodes*

Jane, I do believe you and I have more in common that I thought. Also in my mind is where does it all end? I mean, the universe can't be infinite... there must be an end at some point, right? Or is it all one big circle, and whatever direction you go on eventually you end up in the same place?

[best12bars]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 12:10pm

What happened (long) BEFORE the Big Bang?

Jane2--The way I've heard it is that everything was a "vacuum" of darkness... and there was an explosion of energy inside the (anti-matter) vacuum that started the beginning of the universe as we know it.

So... my question is... what happened BEFORE that?

Updated On: 2/20/06 at 12:10 PM

[justthefacts2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 12:15pm

Oh my God! Thus the idiocy of censorship has just intruded intself into my quasiscientific explanation of the Big Bang Theory. (By the way, isn't it a miracle THAT came through unbowlderized? Otherwise, we would see the Big **** Theory.) I tried to describe the tiny point of origin - as many scientists have before me, by the way - as a (I have to misspell here) pinprik. You know, as in prikking your finger with a pin? Sheeesh!

I think we answered the question as to what existed before the origin of time and space and matter. Censorship. Censorship comes directly to you from the Great Void. Or should I says, "Censorship ***** directly to you from the Great Void."?

[Jane2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 12:15pm

Day Dreamer-I can more easily imagine it never ending..although it is almost as difficult as imagining the beginning. Maybe what we have now is destined to end-has a 'shelf life' if you will. the more we discuss this, the more i see it's an overwhelming topic , maybe too much so for us to debate.

Best 12-that is exactly my question-what was before that?

[Elphaba]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 12:17pm

right Jane, I got that........it was just never something I thought about. As mentioned I figured we're here now......so what do we do with it all???

I probably wasn't clear...just woke...on way to Starbucks

[Color and Light]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 12:20pm

My brain is turning cartwheels right now, reading all of this. But I rather enjoy it - it's a fascinating thread.

Though if I really want to give myself a migraine, I sometimes lie down in bed and try to wonder where it all begins and ends.

[Jane2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 12:21pm

Justthefacts-you know what I'm thinking, yay! Your explanation, starting with the pinprck makes sense from that point on, but as we both are wondering-who put that atom there? I truly don't think our question can be answered, and being a virgo who has to analyze and know who what and where about everything, I just can't be satisfied. There are many who don't need to know about this topic, or don't care, but I find myself wondering about it so often that I needed to bring it up?

As for the censoring-I think there is a list of words and no matter how innocently they are used-even if they have legitimate "OTHER" meaning, such as the work prk, they'll automatically be deleted.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 12:23pm

jane, you just like using pr*ck.

put me in the creationist camp with a god that always was and always will be stirring the stew and allowing the universe to develop.

[Jane2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 12:24pm

thanks. elphaba, I appreciate what you've just said.

[Jane2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 12:25pm

papa, you and gazillions of others. I wish I could just go with that and be happy. It's not my nature though.

[justthefacts2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 12:30pm

Thanks, Jane2. It's a good thing there was no censorship at the beginning of all things, isn't it? I have Mercury in Virgo, which gives me the same thought processes as yours, and Saturn in Virgo - which causes me to go into things very deeply. Unfortuneatly, I also have Venus in Virgo, which means I have no love life - probably because I'm too cautious and analyze things to death.

Best12Bars - I forgot about that - anti-matter. Is that still a theory or has its existence been proven? I suppose speculation on the nature of anti-matter might bring us closer to out goal.