Imagine No Religion — Page 12

"Nothing's obvious when it comes to the explaining the universe no one knows SH*T."

And this is the trope that just keeps getting repeated again and again but there's two things: 1) it's not true and 2) therefore a turtle might have vomited up the universe?

If you can't eliminate the most obvious myths and are going to give every outlandish possibility an equal likelihood of probability, there's little point in continuing the discussion along these lines.

Let's try this, to borrow Penguin's themes: I have never said that myths are not important. They were the earliest attempts at man to create some sense of order in a world that is fundamentally chaotic, that defies having "meaning" and "intention" attached to it like a narrative BECAUSE it is so random and chaotic.

Myths continue to this day, and they serve a similar purpose. They don't actually LOSE that purpose when people admit that they're myths.

---

Updated On: 12/12/07 at 09:52 AM

"The point is... faith in a god (gods) transcended history, but it is shared by many people... Great leaders, well known philosophers, down to the most unknown of people have believed... a god of sorts."

The religions of the world historically are far too varied and complicated in structure and employment to make a sweeping statement like that. Buddhism, for example, can operate fully without the presumption of a God. Hinduism has gods but they are clearly humanistic and cyclical. The oldest religions made gods of the here and now, the animals you can see, the brother at your side. In other words, metaphor made real.

Monotheism, the belief in a single ultimate cosmic power (played by Robin Williams), is actually a relatively uncommon phenomenon in the world that we believe originated with the Egyptians worshipping the Sun.

Which makes a whole lot more sense--you can see the sun!!! It interferes in the world!

And yes, there have been many believers and non-believers (and those who stand in between are more common) throughout the history of the world. This does not prove the existence of God--it actually proves the spirit of humanity. We will continue to search for truth and we will continue to find it.

This is your problem. You're seeing the forest without seeing the trees. Even fifth century monks were searching for the trees. A skeptical view of religion has a lot more to tell you about why we are here than blind faith ever will.

"How do you know that a gigantic turtle ... it could've happened.

This is one of those points where I just feel like sighing audibly.
Thanks for taking the time you did to type all that out Roninjoey. "

I did the same thing. No prob, I think this stuff is interesting. Thanks for what you've said too.

Soapguy, that's the point. What is laughable to us now was not laughable to them, but thanks to SCIENCE, we now have greater understanding. No doubt in 50 to a thousand years people will laugh at us for thinking there was a man who waved his phoenix tail and ivy wand and said "Expecto Humanity".

---

I just have a hard time discussing this with someone who is hugging a Leggo Darth Vader in their avatar.

---

Are you hugging Ron as well?

---

Soapguy, that's the point. What is laughable to us now was not laughable to them, but thanks to SCIENCE, we now have greater understanding. No doubt in 50 to a thousand years people will laugh at us for thinking there was a man who waved his phoenix tail and ivy wand and said "Expecto Humanity".

Or they could be laughing at us for believing that people descended from apes. (I am not saying that I don't believe in evolution, but I am saying that tomorrow there may be a discovery that disproves what we assume is fact). There is a reason it is called the THEORY of evolution. If you are more comfortable putting all of your faith in science, that is your right, just as it is the right of others to search for alternatives. Science soes not have all of the answers, as much as some of you seem to believe. It is also true that the various religions of the world have their questions as well. It is my opinion that failing to see the problems with both sides is where the true irrationality lies.

"anyway, how can you pass up photo ops like that?"

By simply walking in the other direction.

---

Well Diva, it's not my fault we don't share a similar sense of humour :P Thankfully.

Yea, and considering the close relationship between the habits and appearance of certain breeds of ape and humans, it's not all that far-fetched an idea.

I mean, for chrissakes, you can teach a monkey to communicate through sign language... evolution may have some missing links but there sure as hell seems to be a lot of evidence for it in the world as I see it. Remember that Darwin, in fact, came to his theories and beliefs initially by the simple process of observation and experience of life.

---

Erm, good for you then?

That family should have accepted Jesus Christ into their hearts. If only the whole world would conform to the all encompassing love of Jesus Christ, we wouldn't have incidents like this. Le sigh.

---

"There is a reason it is called the THEORY of evolution."

This is another common non-sensical trope trotted out by creationists. It would be great if the schools of the world could spend just a little more time on scientific vocabulary and maybe find a way to make the spring musical kids pay attention during those units.

Scientific theory is not just some idea spouted off, it's a postulation that people work to prove (and here's the key point) or disprove by finding a better more workable postulation. This is something that people who announce that something's just a mystery and declare "we'll never know!" simply refuse to do. So many of the "mysteries" that man "will never know so we'll just have to call it God and chalk it up to 'faith'" have since been decoded and solved. MUCH to the anti-science creationist type's long-standing chagrin. This is why the Taliban is so anti-science. AND Mike Huckabee.

Gravity is a theory too, you know.

---

"There is a reason it is called the THEORY of evolution."

This is another common non-sensical trope trotted out by creationists. It would be great if the schools of the world could spend just a little more time on scientific vocabulary and maybe find a way to make the spring musical kids pay attention during those units.

Scientific theory is not just some idea spouted off, it's a postulation that people work to prove (and here's the key point) or disprove by finding a better more workable postulation. This is something that people who announce that something's just a mystery and declare "we'll never know!" simply refuse to do. So many of the "mysteries" that man "will never know so we'll just have to call it God and chalk it up to 'faith'" have since been decoded and solved. MUCH to the anti-science creationist type's long-standing chagrin. This is why the Taliban is so anti-science. AND Mike Huckabee.

Gravity is a theory too, you know.

But that is exactly my point. It is called a theory because there is no way to prove it. Theories can be disproven, but there is no way to prove them because the next experiment could give a different result. The fact that scientists keep experimenting confirms this. Perhaps there is just one variable that we as fallible human beings are missing that would disprove even the most accepted of theories. Is it likely that everything scientists have learned over the last millenium is false? Of course not. But the chance that some of it is based on false assumptions is very probable. Now I am in no way trying to prove the existence of any type of god, I am mearly questioning the rather blind faith some people seem to have in science. Just looking at the field of medicine and the numerous reversals on advice about what is good for us and what isn't suggest that scientists are nowhere near as certain of things as they would like us to believe.

A theory CANNOT be proven. It is why it is called a theory instead of a fact. Evolution, gravity, relatively, what happened to the dinosaurs, even the nature of good and evil are all theories, albiet from different areas of the human experience. The chemical make-up of water is a fact because anything but 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom is not water. 2+2=4 is a fact. The uncertainty of science is built into the language.

Don't get me wrong, I think science in all of its forms is a wonderful thing. (well, I didn't in school, but as an adult I can fully appreciate its value). What I do not agree with is scientific theories being thrown about as THE reason to not believe in God. Believe or not, and for whatever reason, that is your choice. Could it be that God does exist, but we just don't have the tools to prove it?

Religious faith is what it is. It can never be proven or disproven. There is no evidence for it or against it. You either believe or you don't. At the end of the day the sun is still going to set and rise again in the morning, no matter how many abortion clinics got bombed that day.

I don't disagree with this. I do disagree with the idea some seem to have that because it can't be proven it is false. Just because people 200 years ago didn't know about bacteria didn't mean that they didn't die from infections.