Imagine No Religion- Page 8
Imagine No Religion
DG
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/2/05
#175be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:02pmNamo - I honestly have to ask, why are you so convinced of nothing being 'in charge'? Perhaps you have access to information some of us don't - but I just don't see how our limited awareness leads to the kind of defiant dismissal that you profess.
FindingNamo
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/22/03
#176be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:05pm
Okay, how old are you, nine?
I think that it's irrational of you to call people who believe in God, or are religious, irrational.
You do, do you? Well, that's too bad. The reason I chose the word "rational" was to take away the word "atheist" because that is a word definied by the absence of something. So let's let the "theists" see what it's like to be defined by the absence of something: rationality.
If you make it your life's goal to prove that they are irrational for having faith, perhaps you are a bit irrational yourself, devoting so much time to condescending a group of people who, for the most part, are likely to be very rational people if you took the time to at least consider their point of view.
Of for christssakes, you should excuse the expression. My "life's goal?" I've started one thread the simply began with a graphic asking people to "Imagine No Religion." Not surprisingly, the least rational among you have grow incredibly defensive and affronted by something so simple. As for "at least considering their point of view," I would bet you ten thousand dollars that I have put more time into comparative religion work than you will do in your entire life, not counting your inevitable ectoplasmic apparition studies.
Not to believe, but to hear them out at not condemn them immediately to being crazy or "irrational", which is an insult.
Tough.
#177be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:05pmIn addition, most of the world is religious and/or believes in God or something greater. Are you implying that only those who don't believe, as you don't, are rational and the rest-the majority-of the world is irrational? That is a sad thought. The founders of this country were believers, and if they weren't rational thinkers than who was?
FindingNamo
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/22/03
#178be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:06pmOh, so if everybody suffers from a mass delusion, it's those who don't succumb who are wrong?
#179be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:09pm
Not surprisingly, the least rational among you have grow incredibly defensive and affronted by something so simple.
In all honestly I am an agnostic. I fully admit that I have no idea what's out/up/down there and I fully admit that. I may gain a personal belief, but I will never KNOW what's out/up/down there. No one will.
#180be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:10pm
I honestly can't see more than half the world being irrational and you saying so makes me believe it even less. Why do you spend so much time saying others are irrational? Are you afraid that you yourself are irrational?
I don't see people who don't believe as irrational, but once they start making condescending generalizations like the one you did it makes me rethink myself...
Non-believers are in no way the elitist group you seem to make them out to be.
FindingNamo
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/22/03
#181be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:13pm
You really are nine, aren't you?
Do you even know what the word "rational" means?
Oh, and before you carry on with the trope about this country being founded by believers, let's let Thomas Jefferson from a letter to John Adams have the last word on that, okay?
"The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained.
#182be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:17pm
I'm not saying they were Catholic: they were deists who believed in an interfering God. I know that. That doesn't change the fact that they believed in something. According to you, they are irrational.
I know what the word "rational" means, as well as "irrational" It is reasonable versus unreasonable. I am not nine, and just because I am giving you my opinions and defending them doesn't make me nine. Don't like what you hear? Deal with it, but do not condescend others for it.
FindingNamo
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/22/03
#183be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:18pmYou're not defending your positions, you're taking the points I am making and rephrasing them back to me. Very very nine.
#184be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:23pm
I am defending them. You're closing your eyes to what I'm saying and seeing what you want to see. Like now. Obviously I'm too low of a person and too "irrational" for you to even consider my points.
But honestly, what bugs me the most is that you never answered DG's question. What makes you reject belief so strongly? Don't just say that it's "irrational".
#185be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:25pmNamo does have a tendency of ignoring posts that he can't explain away.
#186be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:27pm
Belief to many of us is a suspension of facts and a leap of faith. It is not knowledge, nor something based upon facts.
Not to speak for Namo, but some of us have to "see it" to believe it. Which means that there is no belief, but evidence/facts that support a conclusion.
#187be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:30pmI know some people have to see it to believe it. But does that make those of us who believe in something we don't see irrational? There is a book called "Apologetics" which has arguments for many questions asked about Christian faith (i.e. why they believe what they do, what the beliefs are based upon). For example, Jesus did exist, he was a historical figure, but the fact that he was the Son of God is left up to faith.
FindingNamo
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/22/03
#188be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:31pm
Rational.
And the funny thing is I am saying that it is the belief that is irrational. Many people I love have irrational beliefs. And I do not consider them below me.
"Namo does have a tendency of ignoring posts that he can't explain away."
Do point out anything I have missed and I will reply.
#189be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:34pm
You missed DG's post:
"Namo - I honestly have to ask, why are you so convinced of nothing being 'in charge'? Perhaps you have access to information some of us don't - but I just don't see how our limited awareness leads to the kind of defiant dismissal that you profess."
And I hope you don't act the way you do here towards the ones you love who believe, because that would be terrible.
#190be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:34pm
Irrational: primary definition - lacking in reason: contrary to or lacking in reason or logic.
So technically, yes, it is irrational to believe in something that cannot be proven.
#191be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:39pm
A belief that no greater being exist is based on what exactly? Science? Test tube babies? Last time I checked sex/humans created babies. So, science is getting closer and closer to duplicating that. That disproves what exactly? Nothing. So if we could look into the future to find that such baby will ever be created, would you then change your thoughts?
Namo - I honestly have to ask, why are you so convinced of nothing being 'in charge'? Perhaps you have access to information some of us don't - but I just don't see how our limited awareness leads to the kind of defiant dismissal that you profess.
YWIW, exactly. Believing in nothing is just as a irrational as believing in god/allah/jah/Vishnu/whomever.
FindingNamo
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/22/03
#192be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:40pmThanks YWIW.
#193be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:40pm
There are "proofs" for the existence of God that philosophers have worked on for centuries. There is no proof that God does not exist. So is it irrational to not believe as well? If neither can be proven than both must be irrational. One cannot be rational if the other cannot be if both can't be proven.
EDIT: If any of you would like I'll post the proofs, but first I must attend to something non-internet related.
#194be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:47pm
Irrational does not necessarily mean bad or wrong.
Love is irrational. Many emotions are irrational.
And, there is no "proof" - in scientific terms.
And, no, I do not find it irrational not to believe in God just because you cannot prove he does not exist.
That does not mean you believe in nothing - instead, it means you believe in what can be demonstrated and repeated scientifically or factually.
The presumption, at least in my mind, is what can be proven. The burden of proof, for purposes of this argument, on those who claim God exists - not on those who look at what is directly in front of them and see only facts.
Just my opinion.
Updated On: 12/11/07 at 08:47 PM
DG
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/2/05
#195be excellent to each other
Posted: 12/11/07 at 8:51pmBut YWIW - I get the feeling that some want to look at the VERY LIMITED information available, and firmly decree that God couldn't exist. They're taking a stand, and therefore as susciptible to the 'burden of proof' as those who 'believe'.
FindingNamo
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/22/03
#196Imagine No Religion
Posted: 12/11/07 at 9:05pm
No DG, it's not. Proving that something doesn't exist is self-evident. Either it exists or it does not. The burden of proving anything falls on the person to prove that something does exist, especially when it doesn't.
And GuitarGirl, I think it's extrememly apt yet most likely unintentional that you put the word "proofs" in quotes.
Again, thank you YWIW for stating my point about irrationality.
#197Imagine No Religion
Posted: 12/11/07 at 9:13pm
Well, if you tell me an envelope has 100 dollars in it - unless I have personal knowledge of the person making the statement, I am going to check to make sure that 100 dollars is there. To me, the belief in God is kind of the same.
If someone has had experiences that make it reasonable for them to believe in God, then that is great. But that is very different from proving objectively that God exists. If someone comes and tells me there is a God, I will still ask them to prove it.
With regard to God, belief or non-belief is something very personal - I would consider myself to actually be an Agnostic - I am just not sure. It has not been proven or disproven. To me, that is the most rational approach to an irrational quest.
Again, irrational does not necessarily mean bad. It just means that it is not supported by logic or reason. Many things that bring joy and comfort to us are not supported by logic or reason.
And, as an aside, it is much more difficult to prove a negative - that something does not exist, than to believe that it does. My friend once had a Philosophy test where he was asked to prove the existence of a chair in the front of the room. He wrote "what chair" and walked out. He got an A (and is also one of the best litigators I have ever met).
Updated On: 12/11/07 at 09:13 PM
#198Imagine No Religion
Posted: 12/11/07 at 9:14pm
They aren't scientific proofs, but proofs that use philosophy, or reason, to deduce that God does exist.
You can't prove that God doesn't exist, though. Can you answer the question of what created the first cell (if the theory is that all cells must come from another)?
I don't find it irrational to believe in something greater than us. Religion has been around since the beginning of time. Why would people have feelings of something bigger than us existing? What could have instilled those thoughts in us. The first people didn't have society to fall back on as an answer.
Phyllis Rogers Stone
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/16/07
#199Imagine No Religion
Posted: 12/11/07 at 9:16pmWho here believes that the Greek and Roman Gods existed? Who believes in Xenu or whatever that Scientology God is?
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