Is the Artist Always an "Outsider?"

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 3:05pm

An artist is said to have an "outside' view or perspective from which they are able to write about a subject in a unique way.

Do you believe this is true? Is the artist always an outsider?

If so is it by choice, personality...?

[blueroses]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 3:06pm

My favorite Outsider was Dallas Winston.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 3:10pm

No. Look at Paris Hilton.

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 3:15pm

Talking POV (point of view) here, or trying to. Can we stay on topic for a bit?

Can you really be inside a group or subject if you are in your POV standing outside it to write about it?

It at least creates a duality in the persona. Ever experienced that kind of artistic duality?

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 3:19pm

I think there are no rules to who an artist is or isn't. There have been artists who were outsiders and artists who were quite in the scene.

There have been artists who have observed from afar and artists who observed in the midst of a scene.

[Fiction Writer]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 3:21pm

I think we have to distance ourselves from the experience to write about it without exxageration (atleast, anymore than necessary).

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 3:32pm

There is a certain clarity that comes from the distance and perspective.

You can also look at your work as a piece of art to be shaped and stand on its own.

I think it is a learned skill but I think it may also be a personality or character trait.

I think it's hard to jump back in and be in the stream when you've seen it from outside.

In that sense I think duality creates a loneliness, an individuality, an apartness that also can have a little suffering to it, which perhaps does relate this in a way to the other thread about suffering, though I still believe they are two distinct subjects.

[Fiction Writer]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 4:03pm

Most artistic professions are solo, which makes for lonely work days.
It's tough for me, because I'm such a people-person.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 4:12pm

Since this is primarily a theatre message board, I'll point out that you can't be an outsider in a collaborative artform.

[Jane2]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 4:12pm

Are you only referring to writing or to other forms of art as well?

[Unknown User]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 4:14pm

this artist is.

but i notice that i'm @ my most productive when i feel the need to be understood.

[DG]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 4:15pm

"Most artistic professions are solo"

In a field that encompasses theatre, dance and opera - among many others - I'm not sure I buy this statement.

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 4:17pm

Oh, Jane2, when I saw you had posted, I certainly thought of your unique POV in what you create in your flower shots.

Any artist.

Well, jrb, you say that. Even in theatre, a playwright doesn't need to be present once they've written the play. There's a lotta dead white guys like Shakespeare who keep getting their plays up and you'd have to use a medium to talk to him.

Yes, group stuff in dance and theatre is collaborative. Even a solo performance gets help from directing and someone to do lights and sound.
Updated On: 8/17/06 at 04:17 PM

[Jane2]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 4:24pm

I realize that those on the board see my photos and think that's the extent of my art. In fact, I did teach all aspects of the visual arts as well as photography for 25 years. In my personal life, I paint, draw, and photograph. I also designed and made tote bags for a while. Photography is my favorite though, and I'm heavily into it now.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 4:25pm

But see--you are being very writer-centric. And in almost all cases, the playwright was around for the original production of their play and was indeed part of the collaborative process.

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 4:26pm

I have just observed your unique POV, Jane2.

I would never have assumed you were limited to one kind of visual with it. It's very visual. Do you translate it to the non-visual as well?

[Jane2]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 4:31pm

Nom, you bring up very interesting and deep points. I'm going to be brief and say that my unique POV extends throughout every aspect of my life and it hasn't been easy. I'm not complaining, just stating the facts. I'm an unusual person and that in itself has led to much suffering. BUT we can't help what we are!

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 4:36pm

I'm not trying to be writer-centric, JRB. The topic and concept of the artist as "outsider" is a very old one. I'm just interested in that topic as a subject, not trying to leave any artist out.

A musical composer often hears or creates melody in their head, it comes to them not from a collaborative effort. Think of the composers of symphonies here. A painter is often alone when they paint a painting unless it has a live subject.

I wonder, though, if a theatre artist who is collaborative, like an actor who collaborates when they have a cast, can also feel very much an outsider when observing another person, say that they want to mimic for a role. I've known actors who were very shy and "loners," some of the best ones can be that way.

It would be possible for an actor to feel a part of and collaborative with other actors, and feel, as did George Cohan, that everyone else who was not an actor was a "civilian" who he would never allow to be close to him.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 4:50pm

But rarely does a composer or playwright write without collaboration involved at some point in the process. A song or scene written or rewritten to fit an actor's brilliance or director's great idea. A scene written to allow for a set or costume change.

But, ultimately you have posed absolute questions with each of these threads and the answer to both has been a clear cut "no". An artist isn't always an outside and art does not require suffering.

[bwaylvsong]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 4:51pm

Since when is BWW a place to take part in intelligent philosophical conversation?

[Fiction Writer]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 5:07pm

I said most, not all.
Most novels, photographs and paintings were made by one person.
Screenplays, plays, musicals, etc are usually made by a team.

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 5:11pm

You are hilarious, bwaylvsong.

Well, jrb, I kind of feel the answer is yes, not "no," but I'm not sure, so there is room for differing points of view.

This actually raises a point that is near and dear to my heart and that is the use of language itself. Some people think language is hard and fixed and represents the person when they speak their thoughts. Others, including myself, feel that language itself is a tool to use to help you decide things and determine how you view things by the "airing" of ideas and weighing and comparing of them.

I'm looking for exploring thought more than determining an ultimate answer as it gives a wider picture for consideration.

And Jane2, a co-worker on a project recently called me "deep" so I had to chuckle at what you said. And when you say "my unique POV extends throughout every aspect of my life and it hasn't been easy," I'm with you--I get it!

[Jane2]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 5:12pm

"art does not require suffering."

Perhaps in your life it doesn't. Have you ever seen any of the biographical films, documentaries, or read any books on some of the great artists? I maintain that the actual creation of art may not require suffering, but the artist per se, suffers in life, due to their own individual personality which is unique, and sometimes quite disturbed.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 5:14pm

Here's why these debates in these threads have gone the way they have:

First day of theatre 101, freshman year of college. Professor sits down and asks, "What is art?" And we all gave answers--but never succinct. Each answer full of loop holes. Took us all of class (and this was a long class) to finally whittle down all the BS into an answer that can stand every test. The next day the same thing repeated with "what is theatre?"

When one poses these kinds of questions, you have to be prepared for others to try to test the answers. And only when you reach an answer that defies all tests do you have an answer.

However, as I said, both of these threads posed a question that was very easy to knock down. I get the feeling that plum is trying to prove that art must include suffering and being an outsider--any answer/test to his/her theory be damned. I could be wrong.

And don't get me wrong--these kinds of discussion are rare and wonderful.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/17/06 at 5:18pm

The answer can't be yes when examples have been given to prove otherwise. You asked absolute questions--and the answer is clearly "no".

I have created great material in very happy times. I don't consider myself to be an outsider either. Are there times when I feel like I am an outsider? Sure. And that colors certain things that I create. But not all.