Lifetime developing Wizard of Oz themed Red Brick Road- Page 2

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/14/13 at 7:11pm

Liza, you must have updated while I was writing ... but see how these two maps aren't even consistent?

Munchkins are in the East.

Winkies are in the West.

First map is wrong, second map is right.

And that's before we even get into the more minute details of each map.

EDIT: I should add that the International Wizard of Oz Club is more interested in preserving what was, so they will publish "inaccurate" maps with the note that they are printing something "historical" that was previously printed in a book's end pages or as a supplement to the Baum books. Not because they want to confuse people.

Updated On: 10/14/13 at 07:11 PM

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 10/14/13 at 8:17pm

I seem to recall that the flipped map was a printing mistake that resulted in the publishers accidentally flipping one of the slides from Baum's Fairylogue and Radio Plays. Basically when they went to print it they forgot that everything would have been reversed when it was projected during the actual presentations.

I think most of the inconsistencies resulted more from Baum never knowing when the series would end and needing to adjust history to make various characters still work as good people within his world. For instance, in The Marvelous Land of Oz it is made very clear that the Wizard was responsible for the overthrow of Pastorius and the abduction of Ozma and enlisting Mombi to help hide her. Later, when he decided to bring the Wizard back to Oz in Dorothy and the Wizard in Oz it seems he did not want the Wizard to have that be something he would need to atone for, and thus the Wizard is entirely ignorant of the existence of Ozma, and Ozma claims that her grandfather was imprisoned by Mombi long before the Wizard arrived, and that both she and her father were born as prisoners to Mombi (not sure who either of their mothers would be if that were the case) and that the throne to Oz was empty when the Wizard arrived to claim it.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 10/14/13 at 9:11pm

Dear Lifetime,

Please call this series "Not Without My Slippers".

TIA,
FN

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 1:00am

True enough, that Baum many changes and errors along the way. he never planned the series, he never intended to continue the series. He just kept writing as the demand was there, often trying to end it.

The reversed original map will always be a point of debate. The oz Map project, which can be found through google, is pretty neat. That created several maps.. the various versions are shows, but the project also sought to compile various maps from various versions and create a composite, so you have a composite map based on baum's writings, a map compiled from all of Gregory McGuire's The wicked Years novels and the ScyFy Channel's Tinman mini-series. If I recall correctly, there was even one map that combined all three versions that was very interesting. The compiled map style was based on the maps in the Wicked books. I don't recall if they addressed the path of the red Brick Road or not.

[Jungle Red]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 10:26am

I'm no expert, but I have read Baum's biography, The Real Wizard of OZ. It states that Baum became the Royal Historian of OZ. Children wrote to him and gave him their ideas, which he incorporated into the books. That could be why there are inconsistencies.

If you haven't read it, it's a very good read. I'm not big into biographies, but this one keeps you entertained and informed.
Amazon link

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 12:44pm

Actually, the red brick road doesn't seem to go anywhere; it looks as though it dead ends at the stream.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 12:49pm

It actually goes beyond the stream on the side by the huts.

Here's a different angle coming around the other side with all of the soldiers and the carriage on it.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 12:50pm

WHY...

Does Glinda not know what Toto is ("Well, is that the witch?" "Toto? Toto's my dog!" "Well. I'm a little muddled...") but the Wicked Witch knows he's a "mangy little dog"?

Do witches know about dogs or not? Or is Glinda more than just a little bit muddled?

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 12:59pm

I think Glinda is a little muddled. It was written first to be a crazy lady played by either Fanny Brice or Edna May Oliver in the earliest stages of production when Noel Langley was working on the script. So comedy came first with Glinda. She was conceived to be more like the older lady "Good Witch of the North" in the original book, before they decided on the beautiful fairy princess idea. Billie Burke was a great mix of kooky and pretty.

I also think she knows Toto is a dog, but maybe thinks "that" might be a witch, too.

Maybe she doesn't like dogs much and calls them "it" or "that."

Dorothy's answer suggests she thinks Glinda doesn't know Toto is a dog, but maybe dogs can be witches in Oz, too.

[madbrian]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 1:00pm

Maybe the Wicked Witch knows that Toto is a dog because she herself is such a bitch.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 1:06pm

I mostly object to Glinda asking Dorothy if she's a good witch or a bad witch and then a few minutes later announcing that only bad witches are ugly.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 1:07pm

Maybe the Wicked Witch knows that Toto is a dog because she herself is such a bitch.

LOL Takes one to know one!

Also since this is a dream and she is Miss Gulch on green steroids, that's the parallel.

Or maybe they only have dogs in the West in the Winkie Country.

I'll give you one big question that readers kept bugging L. Frank Baum about until finally he had to address it in one of his later Oz books.

Early on, it's established that animals can talk in Oz. Even animals who come from other places can talk, which is shown many times in his sequels.

With one big, glaring exception ... Toto.

For many of the first books in his series, Toto doesn't talk.

Finally, in Tik-Tok of Oz, Dorothy persuades him with much cajoling to talk. The answer is he's just not all that interested in talking.

Updated On: 10/15/13 at 01:07 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 1:09pm

Reg, I love it. I think because Dorothy isn't from Oz, the "ugly witch rule" is called into question. But in Oz, bad witches are ugly, good witches are not.

Or Dorothy just doesn't rank very high.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 1:09pm

Besty, I thought Edna May Oliver was in the running for the Wicked Witch. Was she considered for both?

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 1:13pm

"Or Dorothy just doesn't rank very high."

Or Glinda is just an @sshole. I mean, first she insults Dorothy, then she sends on a dangerous journey she doesn't really need to go on.

But, as someone points out in a different fairy tale, "nice is different than good." Nobody said she was Glinda the Nice Witch.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 1:32pm

Edna Mae Oliver was never in the running for the Wicked Witch of the West. The original concept was to cast Gale Sondergaard and make her a glamorous Wicked Queen, like Disney's villain in Snow White.

Oliver and Brice were always considered for the Good Witch, until they went the "fairy princess" route.

As for Glinda, aside from being muddled, she just saw one of her nemeses killed by two creatures who fell out of the sky. She's not assuming anything about little girls or dogs, especially from another planet or a "star called Kansas."

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 1:43pm

The reason for the wide range of casting Glinda in the MGM movie is that she is a combination of both good withes from the book: the (nameless) Good Witch of the North, and Glinda the Good Witch of the South. They look very different in the book, too:

The Good Witch of the North:




The Good Witch of the South (Glinda):

[Jungle Red]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 1:44pm

"Glinda is just an @sshole. I mean, first she insults Dorothy, then she sends on a dangerous journey she doesn't really need to go on."

MadTV summed it up nicely in their skit. Always cracks me up.
MadTV's Alternate ending

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 1:48pm

I love that MadTV sketch!

Part of the problem in combining the two good witches for the film is exactly what Reg points out ... the same good witch sends her on the journey to the Emerald City AND tells her she's always had the power to go back home using the shoes.

In the book, it's two different witches. The Good Witch of the North knows that the shoes are very powerful, but doesn't understand their power.

Glinda (of the South) knows they can take Dorothy home.

So there's no lesson/premise of "she had to learn it for herself first" going on.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 2:14pm

Besty, Aljean Harmetz says that Oliver was considered as the Wicked Witch before Sondergaard and even quotes a memo from Arthur Freed to Mervyn LeRoy saying "I suggest you make a decision on Edna May Oliver, as the Wicked Witch as she is usually in demand."

[Jungle Red]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 2:22pm

I remember watching a cartoon version when I was little. That version of the Witch of the South was very granny and had a weird hat with stuff hanging off the edges.

I remember she kissed Dorothy on the forehead and that's why the Wicked Witch couldn't touch her.

I also remember that Dorothy was taking a bath, and when the Witch tried to take the shoes, Dorothy splashed her with water.

I don't know how that differs from the novel, if at all.

[Jungle Red]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 2:24pm

I got caught up answering emails, so I missed the last post before I posted my reply.

I think I speak for the majority, but The Wizard of OZ wouldn't have lasted this long without its terrific and iconic cast.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 2:25pm

I hate to say it, Reg, but there have been many "facts" in that Aljean Harmetz book that have been discredited over the years.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 2:29pm

Well, at least I know I didn't make it up (even if she did).

Google finds a number of mentions of Oliver as a possibility as the Wicked Witch; maybe they're all coming from Harmetz.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/15/13 at 2:33pm

Well, I wasn't there, so I'm not going to stick to my guns. Maybe it's right, maybe it's wrong.

Her book is often thought of as definitive. I used to think so, too. (I even have a signed copy of it.)

But I have discussed this movie (personally) with several experts as well as with people who were actually there. When I mentioned something from the Harmetz book a couple of years ago, I was laughed at. They gave me an earful.

Updated On: 10/15/13 at 02:33 PM