Nicholas Berg- Page 3

[orion59]

Posted: 5/12/04 at 5:58pm

"If Berg's execution were described in detail without the use of photos or video of the actual event, would the general public be apathetic? Would the news be less shocking?"

Unfotunately, the answer to that is yes, some people would be apathetic and some would not be all that shocked. It's a fact of life that there are plenty of stupid people out there and thsoe are the ones who most need to educated in whatever way it takes. I've said many times that I don't necaessarily support the idea of making photos public but, if the end result is opening the eyes of people who might otherwise be apathetic, maybe it should be done. I absolutely agree with just about everything your saying but I also recognize that sometimes things can be done that may be disagreeable to thsoe of us with intelligence in order to educate those who lack it.

The analogy you make to the Matthew Shepard murder is correct. there was an outpouring of outarage over that. However, my guess is that those who were outraged were thsoe people with the intelligence to realize that something had to be said and done. i would bet that there was a large number of people who didn't care, didn't realize the extent of the horrific murder and were apathetic to it. In any situation you are going to find both.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/12/04 at 6:07pm

iflit - I'm not really trying to argue, just discuss.

"Seeing the pictures of Nicholas Berg made me more acutely aware of just how much we are hated by the enemy."

But that specific picture doesn't accurately the enemy's hatred towards us. It describes the enemy's tactics toward anything they choose. Hussein committed atrocities like this on his own people. The Islamic terrorists have been performing these types of acts for years on anyone they deem the enemy for any reason. They claim this action is a response to what happened to the Iraqi prisoners and that much is true. But what is also true is that they probably would have done something similar to this anyway, simply because the man was American. The timing of the event was driven by the actions of the US soldiers, but the horrific atrocity of the action itself does not really define their hatred towards us as it defines their barbaric methods to which they are accustomed.

"Just this morning I noticed that JonBenet Ramsey is still the queen of the cover girls for any number of sleazy publications, readily available in the nearest check-out line."

And I'm sure the photos were not of her shackled in front of her assassin moments before her murder. And personally, I think all tabloids should be shut down. Everyone one of them is based on an invasion of privacy.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/12/04 at 6:13pm

I gotta run and probably have discussed this as far as I can, but whether or not anyone agrees with me was not my goal. This event has really upset me and discussing it helps me deal with it more than any image of the event ever could. As I told WindyCityActor in a PM, the world view of the US is a matter of great importance to me simply because of my relationship with Jarico. So, anything that jeopardizes spending the rest of our lives together tends to make me a little hyper-sensitive.

Thank all you guys for rationally discussing this topic and I hope it has helped some others as well.

kiss kiss

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 5/12/04 at 6:16pm

To Orion 59

What was the justification for slitting Daniel Pearl's throat- long before the prisoner abuse story broke ?

[newyorkuniq]

Posted: 5/12/04 at 6:23pm

I don't believe that those soldiers "posed" for the pictures just because soemone above them told them to. They know that they are in deep **** and need an excuse now. Honestly they look like they are having a good laugh . As for the Nick Berg thing I have only seen the video up untill he was killed and that did enough damage to me trying to sleep last night. My heart goes out to his family who has to watch that played on the news. I guess maybe some people are finally realising how brutal and dangerous this war is getting.

[orion59]

Posted: 5/12/04 at 6:38pm

There is no justification for it and if you think my position is to justify anything that has happened then you are very much misunderstanding my point. I am saying that the people who committed this murder on a US civilian probably would have done so anyway. By virtue of the fact that our military committed crimes against prisoners, these Al Qaeda murderers can attempt to justify their actions to their own people. It becomes, in the eyes of the Arab world, those that lean toward supporting terrorism, a justified act of revenge. Otherwise, it may have been easier to see it as an unprovoked attack and murder.

We are not dealing with reasonable people here and I don't think we can apply our reasoning to them. However, we have shown that maybe we aren't all that much better than the terrorist murderers. At least in the eyes of people who are confused, in the middle of a war and frightened over their futre and the future of their country, it doesn't take much to sway them over to the side that seems to be most in control. That's where the US failed. We lost control of the situation when our military or intelligence operatives allowed the abuse of prisoners.

We had the chance to show that what we stand for is fair justice and we blew it.

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 5/13/04 at 2:27am

This article discusses several of the points we've been debating in this thread.

Link to article

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 5/13/04 at 2:13pm

and this article is where the discussion will eventually head...

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4FFA61A3-9C33-4597-A8D9-8079E91F2784.htmhttp://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4FFA61A3-9C33-4597-A8D9-8079E91F2784.htm>http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4FFA61A3-9C33-4597-A8D9-8079E91F2784.htm