So that Dan Savage/Brian Brown debate happened

I'm surprised this sort of passed with not much noise. I just got done watching it. They're both respectful, but Dan pretty much owns Brown here.

But it's not like you're going to hear anything you've never heard before. Savage makes all the same, sane, salient points and Brown regurgitates all the same nonsense about redefining traditional marriage, and think of the children and everything else you've heard 900 times.

"Google it! Google it, people! All these things you say have been debunked."


Dan Savage vs. Brian Brown: The Dinner Table Debate

I watched it a couple of days ago. Basically echoing your thoughts. Dan bringing up that his son DJ was considered and denied adoption by two straight couples really drove it home, and Brown never even tried to deny that point and went into the same talking points.

F*CK off.

Brown's blog (I recommend a skim, because it's way too long)
Same as it ever was

I just don't see what the point of these "debates" are anymore. Each side tells the other they're wrong and they argue. It's the same thing I did every day in my 11th grade debt class.

It's called religious indoctrination vs. education. By educating oneself, one has to open up the mind.....
BTW, the body language of both of them was tres interesting, but I thought Dan shouldv'e dressed nicer and more conservatively than the douchebag. THAT would have cracked me up.

Dan was sooooo polite, I hardly recognized him.

"You make a good point that has caused me to reexamine my lifetime of beliefs" said no one, ever.

I would never expect it from people who have made harming LGBT folks their life's work, no.

But I do think it often works with more casual homophobes, just as it often works with people who are prejudiced against others because of race.

I've known that to be the case in my own life.

I guess I've hoped that it would be the case- my "go to" argument on the subject is always to personalize it. If someone posts a douchy Facebook status I bring it around to me. This is the right that is being denied- do you really mean to deny it to me and Dan, even after knowing us so well, inviting us to dinner, etc. etc. I am stunned how many people are like "Well, you're OK but you can't get married" or whatever.

I kind of picture German neighbors standing in the front yard as the Jews are taken away saying "Don't worry I'll water your plants."

"But I do think it often works with more casual homophobes, just as it often works with people who are prejudiced against others because of race.

I've known that to be the case in my own life."

As have I. This is probably not the best analogy, but my great grandma who paassed away about 10 years ago at the age of 103 was a casual, yet still strong, racist. I grew up just kinda wincing and ignoring her casual remarks about "those chinks", and blaming them for everyone (where we grew up, the only real non-white population was Asian). The last decade of her life, she ended up, much to her protest, with a nurse who had just moved to Canada from Hong Kong. You saw the progression--at first she would kinda imply that her nurse (who she quickly grew to love) was merely a rare exception, but gradually her whole attitude seemed to change.

Many have pointed out that despite the youth bullying, younger generations in the US are much more open to gay marriage and equal rights than older ones. And really most of that just comes from exposure. Shows like Will and Grace may not be the best role models, I suppose, but every little thing like that does make a difference.

Phyllis linked the NYT piece by the guy who chaired the debate, and I agree nearly completely with whathe said. But that piece had a link to a piece by Mr. Browns former ally, David Blankenhorn, the founder of the Institute for American Values, who HAS changed his stance on gay marriage. He hasn't done a complete turn around (and unlike Brown, his focus, one I don't fully agree on but do have more respect for, is on the importance for society and children of *marriage* in any form, not of using it as an excuse to preach the bible), but he has changed his stance. And actually he mentions that part of the reasoning is you simply do have to give in to some of the positive changes of the time, that you can see with youth's attitude, etc. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/23/opinion/how-my-view-on-gay-marriage-changed.html

Phyllis, I'm sure you do. I wasn't denying your experience at all.

And I knew you knew that. Mainly my point was that I don't have a Pollyanna vision of how this all works. I just have a few success stories that give me hope.

That's terrible, but at the same time it's heartening to know that that's your first real brush with it. My experience has been quite different, which I know colors my world-view.

I think we have to abduct homophobes children and indoctrinate them into the gay lifestyle. That's how the catholic church does it and they are doing great.