The Abu Ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party — Page 2

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#26

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/8/04 at 11:43am

the good news is, if you've been listening to those on the left we're already so completely loathed around the world that this incident, while horrible, cannot possibly lower our standing any further than it already was.

i mean, how much worse can ya get than hate? is there something more?

namo, your last paragraph sounds like bad chomsky. almost like you're giddily awaiting any catastrophic act to dance on the table shaking that ass and squealing, "i told you so!" it's like the fine line that so many on the left (not that you're a leftie, good god man they don't have words for your kind...well maybe cutie-pie) tried and failed to walk with regard to iraq: they didn't want to seem like they were hoping for bad news, but knew that nad news was the only thing that might win them the white house.

these incidents, while abhorrent cannot be laid at the feet of bush and rumsfeld in my mind. there are too many layers below them at which this could have and should have been caught. there's plenty oif blame and they'll catch their share, but in the end it won't change the fact of bush's re-election.

r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.

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pray to st. jude

i'm a sonic reducer

he was the gimmicky sort

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#27

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/8/04 at 11:56am

oh, now you're being cocky! (which kinda makes me hot lol)

I can't WAIT to open my window on Election Day and hear wailing from across Queens as papa realizes that his beloved Bush will be heading back to Crawford in January.

=oD

johnraymondbarker.com

Updated On: 5/8/04 at 11:56 AM

#28

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/8/04 at 12:03pm

Believe me, I take no giddy delight in the fact that the world's last super power is deflating like a giant Macy's balloon on Thanksgiving night. None. I feel more like a jester, who has just a little bit of foresight, which is what those in power seem not to have. And you know, jesters speak truth to power, it's their job.

The only thing I feel is painfully aware that the ship is going down, and I'm trying to keep my eyes wide open to remember as many of the details as possible. No bossy-boss empire maintains control forever. The US being the biggest bossy-boss of all is an era that is beginning its final act. It's inevitable. The problem is, there's nobody for us to turn to and say, "Hey you guys, remember when we helped you out?" We squandered that possibility. And we'll learn sooner rather than later the meaning of the maxim, "No man is an island."

I'm not talking about Bush's chance for reelection. I am not even thinking about it that way any more. I am thinking about how the people in power keep saying that what this scandal reveals is "not the American way," when in fact it is. When I think of the rapes that American soldiers commit in their outposts around the globe (keeping the empire this country has built secure) and how the military gets them out of there before they can be brought to justice, I think, actually, this IS the American way.

Instead of looking at the next few months and the presidential race, I'm thinking historically. And this is the end of an era. We did not learn from history. We are condemned to repeat it.

Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none

#29

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/9/04 at 6:21am

Does anyone believe that Bush's "outrage" over the photos and videotapes are anything other than hollow and false?

The only reason he "cares" is that it might affect his precious re-election campaign.

"Christ, Bette Davis?!?!"

Updated On: 5/9/04 at 06:21 AM

#30

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/9/04 at 8:24am

I keep wondering how many times he can slither out of being asleep at the wheel. The "nobody told me" defense is getting really old.

A year ago, I (like many of us) was very vocal about how I thought invading Iraq was a bad idea and had disaster written all over it. This is beginning to exceed anything I'd imagined. This isn't just another arrogant American blunder. In a world where we have few friends and a no-so-good reputation, this 'scandel' (it doesn't seem a profound enough word, does it?) is going to be the icing on the cake. Permanent damage has been done, and if the American public doesn't show it's outrage and hold the leaders accountable, we are all condemned.

Sueleen Gay: "Here you go, Bitch, now go make some fukcing lemonade." 10/28/10

#31

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/9/04 at 10:20am

MasterLCZ, I agree with you that Bush's outrage seems false. I tend to think that he would have found this incident justified had the rest of the world not expressed outarge over it. He seems to have very little sense of what is right or wrong. He operates in a revenge mentality without giving proper consideration to the consequences.

Papa, you said that theer are many layers beneath Bush and Rumsfeld where this should have been stopped. True. There are a number of people resposible at various levels and the balme needs to fairly spread. Everyone who was in a position to have stopped this and failed to do so needs to be accountable. However, the fact that so many people were able to accept what was goin on, justify it and feel it was acceptable is partly due to the attitudes of those at the top.

I worked for a company where a few VP's were fired and legal action brought against them because people under them had done some "creative accounting". The VP's defense was that there are so many layers beneath them that they couldn't possibly know every little thing that was going on. What it comes down to is that as a leader you need to make clear what is and is not acceptable. When you take position at the top of the ladder, you are ultimately responsible for everything that happens on the lower rungs. I don't think our coutries top leaders have set the proper standard in Iraq. Every layer involved felt seems to have secure that what was happening was acceptable nd that there would be no consequence for it. It was so blatant that they almost seemed to feel their actions would be applauded. The blame for that attitude being present has to go to the top.

http://www.danperezgallery.com

#32

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/10/04 at 7:16am

A quick read of the lead story in this morning's paper talks about the first soldiers' implicated in the scandel being scheduled for court martial hearings. It's a start. And the tip of the iceberg, to be sure. The party line is that the evils deeds were those of a few, which I'll believe when hell freezes over. I just hope that there is true commitment, even if for the wrong reasons (ie to preserve Bush's chance for reelection), to holding those in charge accountable. And I mean ALL THE WAY up. I've said it before. Rumsfeld may end up being offered as the sacrificial lamb, but I'm not so sure even he won't somehow slither through.

Ever more specific stories aof abuse are emerging daily. One in the paper detailed an account of a naked prisoner cowering against a wall while being threatened by attack dogs. There are apparently pictures showing the aftermath...the man laying in a pool of blood, writhing in pain; bite marks visible. A hand full of court martials isn't going to undo the damage. Then again, I'm afraid nothing is.

Sueleen Gay: "Here you go, Bitch, now go make some fukcing lemonade." 10/28/10

#33

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/10/04 at 7:38am

And today, Saffire defends Rummy, saying to fire him sends the wrong message to the world. How odd. I think keeping him in this job does just that. And as for "messages to the world..." I think we've sent out so many toxic ones, firing one white man from the Pentagon is hardly going to suggest "weakness."

"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling

#34

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/10/04 at 8:20am

I can't see how firing Rumsfeld sends the wrong message. It maybe helps our nation salvage some small piece of credibility. After we do the wrong we at least try to do the right thing.

This has been the worst embarassment to our country. What we've shown the world is that we are willing to sink to the level of the terrorists we condemn. We should have been above that. Our country had the opportunity to show that we can capture terrorists and bring them to justice without behaving in a manner that we might expect from them. After this fiasco of a war, it may have helped us walk away with some shred of national pride and dignity.

http://www.danperezgallery.com

#35

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/10/04 at 10:44am

According to Amnesty International, which I heard quoted on NPR this morning, 70-90% of the detainees didn't actually do anything wrong. Is this one of those "torture em all and let God sort em out" situations?

And there's this from The New Yorker:

:::
Secrecy and wishful thinking, the Pentagon official said, are defining characteristics of Rumsfeld’s Pentagon, and shaped its response to the reports from Abu Ghraib. “They always want to delay the release of bad news—in the hope that something good will break,” he said. The habit of procrastination in the face of bad news led to disconnects between Rumsfeld and the Army staff officers who were assigned to planning for troop requirements in Iraq.
:::

That's why I wonder if Bush REALLY believes that the US has a completely open process? I mean, seriously. He keeps saying it, but it doesn't make it true.

And of course there's this quote:

"There are a large number of Iraqi criminals held at Abu Ghraib. These are not believed to be international terrorists or members of Al Qaeda."

Even Rusmfeld's illegal and amoral assertion that the Geneva Conventions don't apply to Al Qaeda members goes out the window with that bit of information.
New Yorker article

Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none

Updated On: 5/10/04 at 10:44 AM

#36

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/10/04 at 2:21pm

Just turned on the news long enough to hear Bush's full and unwaivering support of Rumsfeld and the job he's been doing. Perhaps I am wrong about Rumsfeld taking the fall.

What it will come down to, I fear, is whether the American public is going to lose interest in this faster that it did in, say, cigars and blow jobs. The effects (of the abuses in Iraq...and whatcha wanna bet, in Afghanistan, too) are going to be much more profound and far-reaching than Clinton's fooling around could ever have been. But the stories this time are disturbing and depressing, rather than titillating, and the public is less likely to be fed s daily diet of it over breakfast and dinner.

It's also about time for another frenzied Double Dark Orange alert which will remind us just how unsafe we are, and how much more unsafe we'll be if we change leaders and compromise our stability.

I hate this. And yes, I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record. But I can't over look it, I can't forget about it, and I don't WANT to let it go. This is bad. It's unacceptable. And some need to be held accountable.

Sueleen Gay: "Here you go, Bitch, now go make some fukcing lemonade." 10/28/10

Updated On: 5/10/04 at 02:21 PM

#37

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/10/04 at 4:13pm

'course the forced nudity and the photographed ritualistic sexual humilations were obviously very titillating for the captors, is it just too much for the American public or will they simply not care because Iraqis are somehow less valuable than big haired interns?

One prisoner described being hooded and his friend being forced to perform oral sex on him all the while being photographed. He could see the flashes going off even though he had a hood on his face. Does that count as an oral sex angle?

Will Rumsfeld use the Clinton defense that a bj isn't even sex?

Rumsfeld was all smiles behind Bush during the press briefing. I imagine he may resign, which gives Bush the chance to save face and not be seen as disloyal, which is like the only guiding tenet he has in his life. Not APPEARING to be disloyal.

Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none

Updated On: 5/10/04 at 04:13 PM

#38

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/10/04 at 4:22pm

The titillating part will come later when Playboy does a spread on Ms. English

http://www.danperezgallery.com

#39

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/10/04 at 7:20pm

whether or not it's right (and i don't think he needs to), rumsfeld will not resign. we're in the middle of a war and although it's been done before, bush is not ready to try to get a sec. def. pushed through the congress right now. i suppose he might try to make an emergency appointment, but i don't think he can even do that. plus, who's second in line over at defense? wolfowitz? i sure as hell don't want him having the reins while they fight with nancy pelosi over who's the right sec. def. candidate. plenty of people ate up that report on the iraqi who went before an human rights council claiming that he'd been raped and that his arm had been broken only to have them remove the bandages to see that he was at the least embellishing his tale.

but i digress. i think that regardless of the fact that it's a national issue, the pictures are so heinous (just as were the acts committed) that they'll not get much play. people do not want to have to (as a friend of mine did) explain to their 8 year olds why the man in the paper has no clothes on. just as there was outrage over janet's nipple, there will be a furor over the torture pics.

i'm not exactly sure where i come down on it. one part of me says that if you want to see them, they're easily found. another part of me thinks that the american people need to sometimes be reminded of the horrors of war (not constantly, but sometimes). but if this were not a military case, if these were not soldiers torturing prisoners, if this were in fact a case of u.s. prison torture (the kinds that happens all to often in our penal system), would the pictures be deemed fit for public consumption? or would the media decide as i think they will soon, that mainstream america does not want to see this ugly horror everyday and bow to the almighty dollar and back off? i'm not sure.

either way, my bet is that rummy stays, i mean goodness gracious, who would take his place, for gosh sakes?

Updated On: 5/10/04 at 07:20 PM

#40

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/10/04 at 7:44pm

Oh, I agree Rummy will stay...or at least he won't be fired. When the other pics and the videos become public (and you know they will one way or another)...he may resign...and the current administration will use that event as a pubic relations moment to declare that the house has been cleaned, and we can start anew.

Those pictures will be engrained in the world's memory for decades. The United States can never claim to be the moral leader of the world again.

#41

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/10/04 at 7:46pm

Well, I know where I come down on it. These pictures need to be seen by the public. We need to know what is being done in our name. And we need to not forget it, either.

It doesn't matter, in the eyes of the world what happens next. A quick court martial of a grunt isn't going to change the reaction of the rest of the world one iota. The only thing that might possibly help is if the American people show their outrage....not just their concern....not just offer to throw money at the abused... but actually demonstrate that this is unacceptable by holding leaders accountable. We have lost any claim we had to the "high ground".

Sueleen Gay: "Here you go, Bitch, now go make some fukcing lemonade." 10/28/10

#42

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/11/04 at 12:20am

The extra-deliciously talented writer/editor from The Village Voice, Mr. Richard Goldstein has an EXCELLENT analysis of why Lyndie is the poster gal for bad military behavior that absolutely NAILS the sexual angle, IMHO:

"Say what you will about sexism in this coverage. It's definitely true. But there's another reason why England's face is so ubiquitous in the press. Many acts depicted in those awful photos resonate with certain erotic fantasies. To admit that images of forced sodomy and pyramids of naked men are arousing is to understand why guards can do such things when ordered to, and then smile for the cameras. But because these fantasies clash with acceptable sexuality, they produce revulsion. The media show just enough flesh to rivet our attention, while blurring the holes in the prisoners' rectums as a signal of what we need to repress."
Link

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#43

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/11/04 at 6:10am

Namo, that's so ironic...you made the very same point in a PM the other day!

Meanwhile, today could yield more disturbing information:

"In a report issued by U.S. Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who investigated the treatment of captives, other abuses cited included a male guard having sex with a female detainee and male captives sodomized with a pole or stick.

Taguba will be the lead-off witness at a hearing today before the Senate Armed Services Committee. Also scheduled to testify is Undersecretary of Defense Stephen Cambone, who oversees military intelligence, and other Pentagon military brass."

And while the upper ranks of command in Iraq are scrambling to make clear that "they didn't know...had no idea...and would have certainly done something about it if they had..." yada, yada, yada... It leaves me wondering which is worse: to have known and turned a blind eye, or to have been totally clueless. Neither explanation makes me feel better. Other people knew. The Red Cross knew. How is it that no one listened until the ugly reality came to light? And of course, now everyone is rushing to cover their asses. It would be laughable if it wasn't so hidious.

And as long as I'm on a role, could the phrase "I take full responsibility" ring any emptier? There seems to be no repurcussions for screwing up any more as long as you say the magic words. What ever happened to accountability???
Link

Sueleen Gay: "Here you go, Bitch, now go make some fukcing lemonade." 10/28/10

Updated On: 5/11/04 at 06:10 AM

#44

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/11/04 at 9:36am

One wrinkle in the Administration's intention of blacking out further photos: The courageous stance of Republican John McCain. He told TODAY, clearly, that there is no way pix can be withheld. They will come out, and we will see them; waiting for leaks will only undermine any attempt at establishing credibility. An attempt that may be futile.

What's startling to me is the Republican party line about a handful of people. Last night, I saw Newt Gingrich on Fox smirking as he talked about "10 or 12" soliders being the whole case. Even he has raised it from 6. Good ol' FOX, doing nightly damage control for the administration to maintain "fair and balanced" reporrting. (And I love the fact that FOX, of course, is the one network that is not covering the hearing this a.m.)

But remember all the head shaking and tsk-tsking the Republicans did about Clinton and Monica and "How do we discuss this with our children?" Surely that pales with having to tell our children about our heroes performing sexual acts with prisoners during a war. How the hell can anyone keep these from most kids, and explain any of it? What are schools to do? This, after all, is also history. Abuse and war go together, and the irony f this era isn't lost in my house, where my son is studyin the Holocaust. The complexity of the word "abuse" -- forget torure -- will make this one of the most difficult moments to nail in history.

My take on this day, as the hearings unfold: Watch for someone to leak a bit of nasty reportage on Mr. Taguba by nightfall. He will be scapegoated, no doubt for throwing away a penmanship medal in elementary school. Or playin spin the bottle and "abusing" a classmate in 6th grade..

"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling

Updated On: 5/11/04 at 09:36 AM

#45

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/11/04 at 10:11am

You're right, Auggie. Where is the concerned look on Katie Couric's face as she announces, "How do we talk to our kids about forced oral sex and rectal rape with solid objects, about naked pyramids, about photographing nude men on leashes? They don't know the names of the war dead, they've heard about heroes and liberators, and now they are being exposed to shocking photos of abuse, (formerly known as torture). Child development specialist Mindy Blechtenstein joins us to help us understand how to talk to our kids about this scandal."

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#46

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/11/04 at 10:56am

Inhoff of Oklahoma, deploring the use of this "event" for party politics, just grandstanded about how outraged he is by the outrage -- that we should be required to issue these pictures with pix of the Saddam Hussein regime. What any of these warmongers fails to acknowledge is the nature of "us vs. them," them being "the enemy..." You'd swear that we were talking about Nazi Germany and Hitler. This heinous man did not declare a war on us, did not shelter our known enemy, Al Q., Yet we're required to place these abuses in the "context" of Saddam's? Why?

We brought this war on ourselves, and on them. We leaped into this country, declaring moral authority, murmuring "freedom, now!" So our standards of behavior -- as an unvited guest with an announced agenda -- surely must be high (and not just mighty). We went there to give these people what they lacked, civilization. So our civilization-defining tactics and behavior -- from the smallest attn to personal property, to the handling of prisoners -- take on enormous symbolic ramifications.

"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling

Updated On: 5/11/04 at 10:56 AM

#47

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/11/04 at 11:21am

Actually, we went there to get the weapons of mass destruction. For no other reason. Then it was for regime change, which is of course unconstitutional. Then it morphed into liberating the people and the soldiers were to be greeted with rose petals.

Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none

#48

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/11/04 at 11:45am

Interesting how it's become "unpatriotic" to dwell on those darned WMD. The new take on them: get over it. We thought he had 'em. So what if he didn't. We have a BIGGER mission. The free state in the mideast argument was very quickly taped over the hunt for weapons. Now it's "we have to finish the job!" The job ever more vague to the America public. Oh, and lest we think about who's doing the job, let's make sure we don't "exploit" the war dead by showing photos. If there's one thing this Admin. hates it's those pesky cameras. Rumsfeld just can't get past 'em. You can talk down to the illiterate, but a picture is ... what is the expression? Worth a thousand words. And 40 million votes. Better make sure we don't let those darned things get in the wrong hands -- you know, American voters.

I love the Republicans crying foul over the politicization of this "event." The senator from Missouri just attributed the abuse to inadequate funding during the Clinton years! That's a new stretch, that if only Clinton hadn't weakened the army, we wouldn've have these people running 'round with dogs and leashes getting folks to strip and masterbate. That damned Bill and Hillary with their lack of morality -- all evil acts go back to them. How could we have missed that salient pt in the past ten days?

"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling

Updated On: 5/11/04 at 11:45 AM

#49

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/11/04 at 12:52pm

i wonder what this means...

Do you think the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, should resign because of the prisoner abuse issue, or should he keep his job?

Responses by Party Dem. Rep. Ind. All

Should resign 30% 11% 17% 20%

Should keep his job 58% 82% 73% 69%

DK/No opinion 12% 7% 10% 11%

Source: A Washington Post-ABC News poll conducted by telephone May 5-6, 2004, among a national sample of 802 randomly selected adults. The margin of sampling error for overall results is plus or minus 4 percentage points. Fieldwork by TNS of Horsham, PA.

probably nothing, really, but it is interesting to see that even democrats don't want rummy gone. think that's because it's more fun to have him to swing sticks at? i apologize for the caps as i am way too lazy to dig trough it all.

#50

re: the abu ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

Posted: 5/11/04 at 1:01pm

I found a TV to watch while I ate lunch, and I have to say that Inhofe (R-Ok) has to be living in lala land. Auggie already mentioned this, but SEEING it is even more unbelievable. He is "outraged by the outrage". This isn't so bad, don't you realize? The liberal press (and that's another thread for later tonight, cuz I'm not seeing the press as all that liberal these days...) and the Democrats are making it sound worse than it is. WORSE THAN IT IS???? Give me a break.

Sueleen Gay: "Here you go, Bitch, now go make some fukcing lemonade." 10/28/10

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