The Abu Ghraib crisis: 48 hrs pass, and it's party vs. party

[Auggie27]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 12:03pm

There was a fleeting moment when once again, we almost rallied as a nation, to voice our collective, unified outrage, to own the crises that has been b'cast over the world. A mere two days later, Rumsfeld refuses to call it torture, Rush Limbaugh is calling the abuse the equiv. of fraternity hazing, and a hot headed Rangel is demanding impeachment. Even if you agree with any of those people -- is it useful?

We began this war as a war of ideas, theroretically (and I underscore that word) designed to create a new impression of America in a part of the world where our reputation has been diminished. Damage control, in a sense, has been part of our "mission" from day one. Even if some people thought that mission accomplished, after last week, that perception is pretty useless. Now, instead, we have given the Arab world a blistering photograph to place on Al Qaeda's recruitment poster. That's a fact, not partesan rhetoric. Yes, it's an election year ... yet finger-pointing between Republicans and Democrats is an expensive and dangerous waste of our time. We must, as a country, do what seems impossible: take action to alter this perception. Or face more deadly consequences, in Iraq, elsewhere in the mideast, and here on our soil. Surely we've learned that merely threatening the use of firepower -- and employing it -- will never make us safer. Until the world sees us differently --as courageous, moral, life-affirming arbiters of peace -- we will a ubiquitous target. For generations to come.

Updated On: 5/7/04 at 12:03 PM

[son_of_a_gunn_25]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 12:09pm

What's everyone's thoughts on the "Fire Rumsfeld" outburst? Has that ever happened during something like this before?

Updated On: 5/7/04 at 12:09 PM

[orion59]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 12:11pm

This is all very fascinating Auggie but, I'm sorry, I just can't focus on it right now. Don't you realize there are more important things happening in our country? Millions of people are mourning the loss of Friends.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 12:13pm

I think the "FIRE RUMSFELD" crew were the best theater of the day. I remember when the gifted writer John Weir interrupted the CBS Evening News with Dan Rather when he and a friend invaded the studio and popped up in front of the camera yelling "Fight AIDS, Not Iraquis" back during Gulf War II.

Updated On: 5/7/04 at 12:13 PM

[Auggie27]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 12:16pm

Yep Nammo. Another one of those "messy" moments of freedom that Mr. Rumsfeld touts.

[orion59]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 12:25pm

I don't, I don't think we can alter the perception of what we are and what we stand for. I think so much damage has been done over such a lengthy period of time that it's too deeply engrained. To accopmlish that goal would require leaders who have the capacity to deal with the rest of the world diplomatically and to be seen as peace makers striving to change the world for the better. I just don't see that happening regardless of who our next President is. The necessary level of diplomacy and trustworthiness isn't there in any candidate at this point.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 12:41pm

There is an intense level of gravitas when McCain, a victim of torture as a prisoner of war, keeps hammering away about "fundamental, straightforward questions." It's very, very heavy.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 12:51pm

McCain's line of questioning absolutely cuts to the chase. Who gave instructions to the guards, and what were the instructions? And his underlying point -- that Rumsfeld was oblivious -- was hit hard and clearly.

[Ruffian]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 12:56pm

McCain shoots straight

[Auggie27]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 1:20pm

Predictably, it's all about who knew what and when -- my timeline is better than your timeline! -- rather than a recognition of systemic failure. Or policy misdirection. Again, it can't be stated enough: the world at large isn't interested in internecine checks/measures in a government they see as dubious. Except for McCain, most Repupublican (like Sessions') questions are clearly designed to build a case that the military did all it could. Even if they did -- even if they handled this in an exemplary manner from day one -- what difference does it make in the court of public opinion? The operation was a success but the patient -- the US profile in the world -- dies anyway.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 1:55pm

i wonder, though, in the almighty "court of public opinion" what exactly would be enough to sate the arab street. does it require a stones-esque "if i could stick a knife in my heart, suicide right on the stage...would it help ease your pain?" because really, nothing short of the bush administration's public suicide en masse is gonna satisfy some folks. these of course are the same folks who danced at the toppling of the twin towers and expect that the murderers of children will be granted virgins in paradise, well, just some of them believe that. there's also those that spent the sanctions years in iraq making deals for kickbacks with saddam while he starved his people.

is it a black eye on america, yes. but really, how high could it logically go? according to the taguba report (have any of you read it?) the abuse was over back in december. it was not a systemic problem of abuse, but rather the words systemic problem were applied to the failure of the military police units to achieve, distribute and adhere to a standard operating procedure with regard to the both the treatment of prisoners and the chain of command. the blame is laid at the door of the general in charge of the unit for allowing it to get out of control. not the abuse, but the unit itself.

when i ask how high it could go, i think it's important to think about the fact that these are the kinds of acts are the who rationale behind plausible deniability. there are no reports written that detail it, and if it was being done at the behest of senior officers, you can be damn sure they'd have had sense enough not to allow pictoral documentation. i mean to quote rummy, "goodness gracious." the taguba report details the persons directly responsible and the higher ups that allowed this atmosphere to fester and suggests appropriate punishments for those individuals.

to claim that rumsfeld is responsible is like saying that howie safir was responsible for justin volpe (nyc history folks, look it up).

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 2:21pm

First of all, I think Safir is really sexy. Second of all, I STILL hear conservative pundits blaming teen pregnancy on Clinton's blow job. I mean. If more teens followed Bill and Monica's example, teen pregnancy rates would continue to drop. I was going to say go down but decided not to. But then I just did it anyway.

This is very, very bad for the administration, and for the entire country, Papa. Zooming up to the view from 20,000 feet and saying "there's not going to be ANY satisfying these people" avoids the point, but it's still the major point.

Updated On: 5/7/04 at 02:21 PM

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 2:34pm

ok, now i think rummy might be preparing to fall on his sword...

"Let me be clear," Mr. Rumsfeld said. "I failed to recognize how important it was to elevate a matter of such gravity to the highest levels, including the president and the members of Congress."

that's from the times and i left the captials as is to point out something. the times sees fit to capitalize congress but not president?

and, namo, i do not deny that this is a horrific incident, but i was responding to the point that what is enough to satisfy the "court of world opinion." i think that the suggestions in the taguba report should be implemented and those cited as being responsible punished with the punishments suggested. but i don't think that anything short of mass executions will satisfy some of the folks out there. especially with rummy's ominous admission that there's much, much worse evidence yet to come.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 2:42pm

And as a result of the "worse evidence" that is to come, the citizens of America will be in even more danger at the hands of terrorists we were thought to have defeated because you just KNOW it's going to involve the degradation of Iraqi women. Those pictures will be the ultimate Al Queda recruitment posters.

Perhaps the administration can put up a "Mission Decomplished" banner now?

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 3:10pm

well, i think the terrorists in question were never defeated, nor was it ever posited that they were. they have been put "on the run" while we "smoke them out."

the "mission accomplished" banner was in reference to combat operations in iraq, i.e. the defeat of saddam hussein and his military as constituted as a national entity. as such, it technically still applies. in a more general, and some would say honest, sense, the accomplishment of that mission laid the groundwork for the guerilla tactics our military faces today at the hands of both iraqis and foreign fighters (who are less and less popular among iraqis). the specific mission as defined by operation iraqi freedom was in fact accomplished. the much larger and more precarious mission of helping to allow iraqis to practice that freedom is ongoing.

amidst all of this is lost the fact that tribal leaders have taken an ultimatum to moqtada al sadr which requires him to surrender to them and requires his madhi army to disarm. specifically, they require the city of najaf to be free of weapons. these 100 or so tribal leaders who represent 5-6 million followers are the same ones who ran a joint operation with american forces to run the madhi army out of al kut. they have given him until may 15th to submit to their requirements among which are that he stand trial on the charges against him and abide by the decision of the court, which must be iraqi. so we haven't lost all the hearts and or minds, yet.

[WindyCityActor]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 5:18pm

Maybe I'm missing something here (and if I am, please don't flame me!), so long at the administration refuses:

Label the detainees as "POWs;"

Abide by the rules of the Geneva Convention;

Apply some "checks and balances" over the actions of civilian contractors....

Aren't the likely to see this type of abuse happening on a regular basis?

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 5:44pm

Remember that moment when you first heard about Monica and Bill? I remember EXACTLY where I was (stopped at a red light on Bloomfield Ave.)... I remember being amused, and also thinking "this is gonna be huge".

I feel like that about Rumsfeld's testimony today. And the lies, cover-ups, and bad judgement in this case are much more grave than Clinton's gettin' lucky. This is going to be huge, with reverberations I can only begin to imagine.

Impeachment anyone?

Updated On: 5/7/04 at 05:44 PM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 6:25pm

Monica implied that Clinton was huge on Saturday Night Live, but this is actually so incredibly egregious. Will Rumsfeld's resignation be enough? Is that the best that Bush can hope?

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 6:27pm

No. Rumsfled's not enough. But I bet they're gonna try and make him the sacrificial lamb.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 5/7/04 at 6:32pm

I'm just wondering if Rumsfeld's resignation alone will be enough to satisfy the American public.

They are easily distracted. Even I couldn't believe it when Rachel walked onto the hearing floor and it turned out she hadn't got on the plane to Paris at all. See what I mean?

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 5/8/04 at 12:05am

papa, I think you are a deeply intelligent (and sexy) guy--but I am constantly amazed at how far you'll go in desperation to defend this administration. Recently, you accepted doubts about the administration--now, you are practically Karen Hughes!! I wonder what will it take for you to finally see how deep the **** we are in? Isn't it time to clean up?

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 5/8/04 at 1:24am

:::
Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., a veteran of the House Judiciary Clinton impeachment hearings in 1998, had his sound bites honed to a sharp, quotable edge: “I want to prepare the public. The worst is yet to come in terms of disturbing events.”

A few minutes later, Graham told a press conference, “We’re talking about rape and murder here, we’re not just talking abut giving people a humiliating experience, we’re talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.”
:::

Rape and murder. By those who went to free the victims of rapists and murderers. The high road is gone (if it ever was there) and it's getting lower by the minute. And this is the direct result of an arrogrant, condescending, anti-intellectual, administration that is the most cloaked and secretive in history. It is a strategy that is going to bring about disaster. As the SS America continues to take on water, that sound you hear off in the distance is hens on their way. They're coming home to roost.

May God forgive the United States of America and even those of us who never wanted any of these things done in our name. And rest assured, it's in all of our names.




Link

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 5/8/04 at 1:45am

Winning the hearts and minds, indeed.

Al Qaeda et al has just been handed a nicely packaged recruitment tool. Time to dust off the Orange Alert, for real.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 5/8/04 at 9:48am

Namo's post says it all for me.

Make sure you read Frank Rich's piece in the May 9 Arts and Leisure. His summation of the past week, from the Koppel show/Sinclair black-out through Abu Ghraib, paints this as the defining moment that it is. Also, the many letters in the Times today from across the country. Even David Brookes, the next generation's Saffire, offers a sober reflection on a year of failure.

The most potent letter: "War is not an antiseptic video game, and there are consequences. Our bombs were not that accurate, and were bound to kill thousands of innocent Iraqis. When we conflated the atrocities of 9/11 with Hussein, we pulled the cork out of a bottle and unleashed our hatred. The torture of Iraqi prisoners logically followed. War is barbaric, and men and women are reduced to ciphers, obeying orders they do not understand and carrying out tasks that would normally repel them. The decision to go to war was the atrocity, and the price we pay is the temporary loss of our own sense of decency. We must all accept responsibility..."

Updated On: 5/8/04 at 09:48 AM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 5/8/04 at 11:31am

I didn't see this on NBC, but the Boston Herald says:

"The unreleased images show American soldiers beating one prisoner almost to death, apparently raping a female prisoner, acting inappropriately with a dead body, and taping Iraqi guards raping young boys, according to NBC News."

Now, I know the silver lining crowd might take some relief and say "Oh, it was IRAQI guards who were raping young boys. See??"

As it slowly comes to light over the next several days that these were not "isolated rogue individuals" but rather part of a systemic thought process that disregarded the Geneva conventions (remember, it was Rumsfeld who said the Geneva conventions did not apply to suspected Al Queda linked individuals and it was he and the president who have conflated Al Queda with this entire operation's objectives) we'll slowly but surely find ourselves completely alone and loathed even more around the globe. And remember those allies Bush disregarded in is march to war with his "isolated individual" mentality? They're just gonna leave us hanging out to dry as they blast The Hives' "Hate to Say I Told You So" on an endless loop.

What I firmly believe is that Bush's attempt at empire building is hastening the demise of the American empire. We're the bullies who are about to find out what happens in the third reel, when those we oppressed get their turns to sock us in the gut. And the bully looks around to for the support of all his friends who used to stand around and cheer him on, and they're all gone.

Updated On: 5/8/04 at 11:31 AM