The suicide of a therapist/gay self-help guru- Page 3

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 4:47pm

That makes a lot of sense, actually. He does seem like one of those people who, at some point, have an "ah-ha" moment and then suddenly think they've found, for lack of a better word, "the secret" to success and happiness and fail to see when and how it's not working--just blindly preaching it until it catches up with them. Obviously, I believe nothing's that simple. While I think things like positive re-inforcement, taking pride in how you look, etc, can do a lot of wonders for your state of contentment, it also can be pretty hamful when you realize, after a prolonged matter of time, that it really isn't working as well as you thought.

This may be stretching, but it kinda reminds me of the whole "The Secret"/Oprah mentality (although, while I have a ton of issues with Oprah, I think she has done a decent job of addressing that there often is more to the issue). It's all good to focus on the positive and things improving, but the problem with philosophies like The Secret, IMHo, is for a lot of people, when they do subscribe it it and then it doesn't work, they end up in a more harmful place than they were before (ie extreme cases like people hearing stories of people who have 'cured" their cancer from just envisioning it gone and working towards that--how much ****ter do they feel when it doesn't work). I know I'm crossing into something else here, but I do get that kind of sense from the way he "shrinks".

And, yes, honestly if you like your body and wanna take off your shirt, more power to you--but then don't worry what others think--how sad it seems to go to a bar, spend five minutes assessing the situation to see what the age ratio is and how others will perceive you, before doing something like that. All these games and rules just seem so pathetic (another crack therapy it reminds me of is some of the advice in dating/scoring manuals like The Game).

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 4:53pm

I completely agree with you about how he seemed to do a bit of that Law of Attraction stuff but unfortunately he combined it with "make cosmetic changes to conform as much as possible to a mainstream standard of beauty because then you will be treated like an object"!

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 5:04pm

Oh absolutely. Which is really the first advice I think any sort of counsellor should give--I wonder if the first thing he did when his patients came to his office was asked them to take off their shirts to assess where their unhapiness was coming from.

[Scripps2]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 5:31pm

Maybe he knew all along that he was selling a superficial approach to much deeper problems.

Reading between the lines of the NY Times article it seems as though he was damned if he didn't publish (due to his client base not being large enough) and damned if he did (because it would expose his superficiality). Recognising this, and probably being someone whose self-worth placed an over-emphasis on career achievement, he pulled the plastic bag over his head.

His death may be tragic and it's certainly ironic but, to me, there's somehow also an element of how the whole gay community is complicit in building and perpetuating a bubble of self-delusion around each other.

[Kad]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 6:08pm

"I wonder if the first thing he did when his patients came to his office was asked them to take off their shirts to assess where their unhapiness was coming from."

Well, he apparently did that before they stepped into his office anyway.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 6:40pm

True...

Scripps I agree with your post mostly, but am kinda on the fence with the last lpart. I get what you're saying, and there's truth there, but at the same tiume I can't help feeling some resentment for somehow being complicit just because I am a part of the gay community (at least I suppose I am--though lately, aside from one or two close friends, the only time I'm around many gay guys is when I go clubbing which has dwindled to about once a month).

I'm not saying that he should have been strong enough to not fall for some of those stereotypes, by any means--and I'm not sure why the concept bugs me. But really, we're starting to live in a culture where teenaged boys--no matter if they're straight or gay--are growing up to believe that a six pack is necessary to live their life successfully, at least when it comes to relationships (and of course such superficial issues have long existed for girls and women, but instead of evening out by improving for them, they just seem to have moved on to straight males as well).

I know that's somewhat of a different issue--I'm just ranting at this point, trying to get why the statement bugs me. Oh well.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 6:48pm

how the whole gay community is complicit in building and perpetuating a bubble of self-delusion around each other

No, I can't go along with that. First of all, there IS no single "whole gay community." That is, as Namo has more eloquently stated, a false construction that was invented originally to create an advertising market.

The are dozens--perhaps hundreds--of gay communities that have no complicity at all in that message, communities that are excluded from that world, communities that reject that world, communities that don't even know about that world.

There are gay communities of color, gay communities of "size," gay communities of hairiness or scruffiness.

There are gay "differently abled" gay communities, there are gay communities within the military, there are gay religious communities. There are lesbians.

None of the people in these gay communities necessarily or automatically buy into the worldview of this man.

The suicide was his act alone. There are others like him. They may be complicit. But you cannot say the "whole gay community" is complicit when very few gay people actually share his values.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 6:54pm

Right, PJ, and even there I personally feel a bit of a loss. I get why such communities (subcommunities?) exist, and I admit sometimes I've consciously tried to avoid elements of it (when I lived in Montreal I passed up a very nice flat in the gay village, even though I was there at least a couple of times a week, simply because I had some friends who literally did everything there, including insisting on going to the presumably gay dentist, and it just irked me).

But I'm a hairy guy, I tend to be attracted to guys with some hair, but I'd never want to find some sort of high school like clique devoted to that (besides which apparently I'm too skinny to be a bear, and I'm not sure where one goes from there...)

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 7:09pm

I think maybe a better way to put it is that the gay community Bergeron saw himself a part of (and later, it seems, found himself struggling to stay a part of) is complicit in the sort of bubble he found himself in, but to some degree, that's still a prison of his own making.

Trust me, I'm well aware of the body fascism and obsession with youth and beauty within segments of the gay population, which I think is what Scripps was saying (at least that's how I read it). It's funny, because I've sought therapy to help me rise above those sorts of pressures to raise yourself to unattainable standard; it would have never ever occurred to me find a therapist to help me thrive in that sort of scene.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 7:16pm

That makes sense, and does sound like what Scripps meant. How awful then to think his therapy may have helped push some people more into this view... Not that it's not pushed elsewhere all the time, but to go to therapy because of having some issues in your life, and then...

[DottieD'Luscia]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 7:22pm

Eric, that's the exact point I was trying to make when I posed my question about the people/clients who bought into that philosophy.

I have to say I've been happy with whatever age I am, though in retrospect 25 was hard for me for some reason. I definitely don't miss the angst, but will admit one of the things I do miss is being carefree because of the lack of major responsibilities when I first moved to NYC.

[TxTwoStep]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 7:31pm

as someone who came to terms with his looks-ism not nearly early enough (as in, i gave good looking peeps too much benefit of the doubt way too much for way too long), i can have empathy for others who buy the general consensus that our society puts on being fit/thin/hairy-in-limited-places on either side of the gender line. i can also see some good intent in helping others come to terms with it, but this case seems an exception in two ways: a) from the scanning i've done, his "therapy" seemed to be more "i'll help you deal with your prejudice as i share it" than "let's open up your world view so you can find your own self more acceptable" and b) his choice at the end negated even his own self-actualization scheme. That has everything, and oddly NOTHING, to do with his wealth, penchant for shirtlessness, or choice in colleagues (again, on either side of the professional line). At my local Starbux there was one very fit man of my age who constantly took his shirt off on the patio (in fact chose to sit there because he could be shirtless). He also at times brought his parrot with him, who perched atop his shoulder like something out of a pirate movie and enjoyed catching tossed grapes and bits of cheese in his beak (the bird, not the de-shirted). i judged this pectacular display for quite a while as ostentatious, then one day saw him do the kindest, most humble thing for someone else...and realized that despite his choices, it was MY choice that limited my understanding of him as a whole person. i started to make inroads toward getting to know him better, and now like him very much...despite my preconcieved notion he was too old to be taking his shirt off, or that most folks should remain clothed at Starbux.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 8:04pm

"despite my preconcieved notion he was too old to be taking his shirt off, or that most folks should remain clothed at Starbux."

So are you one of the people fighting the ban on nudity inside eating establishments currently being dealt with in San Francisco? :P

Honestly, that makes a lot of sense (though I keep on thinkingof the parrot sitting on his shirtless shoulder and how painful the claws must be...)

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 10:20pm

I give him points for having a parrot on his naked shoulder. But I think you bring up a great point. (And I think there have been a lot of those in this thread.) It's probably human nature to separate out the behavior of others that we think crosses some line, decorum, good taste, etc. It would probably be impossible to banish such thoughts. But there's a difference between that and trying to inculcate others with your thoughts, especially if they become pathological, as I bet Bob Bergeron's did.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 10:58pm

If I saw that guy in Starbucks I could see myself finding him amusing or annoying, depending on my own mood.

It's all just about remembering that at this point, people should feel free to be in gay in the way they want to be, even if that includes coming up with an algorithm for when he feels he can be shirtless in public.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 11:16pm

IF the algorithm brings him happiness and he doesn't try to sell it as a "rule" for others!

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 11:20pm

Bingo! I think I meant to say something like that.

[TxTwoStep]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 2:47am

i was curious about the parrot claws too, one of the first things i asked him....once we got talking. My grandmother kept parrots and parakeets and i love them. He said he had trained it to rest on his shoulder without clinching or scratching, but it took a while and sudden startles could get painful. i wish i was home enough to keep a bird.

[Scripps2]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 6:49am

I was wrong to generalise and apologise. Phyllis and Eric articulate one of the points I was trying to make but I was also struggling to articulate a number of ideas that result from various issues going on in my own life that I am trying to make sense of. Having slept on the matter, what I think I meant is that somehow, I feel complicit in this and that is troubling me: even though I never met the guy and have never danced shirtless at a nightclub. Let me try and explain why:

1) One of my friends is in his early 40s and struggling to deal with the aging process. He’s derives a lot of self respect from still being able to dance shirtless in nightclubs and still tallying up the euphemistic notches on his bedpost. And he seems to be ratcheting up the youthful behaviour ever more desperately rather than recognising that there may come a time when it needs to change. We were in a bar a few weeks ago where his behaviour was very inappropriate and you could see the looks of shock on everyone else’s faces (although he was too drunk to notice). He’s also had to resign from a sports team recently because he can’t take the pace from the younger guys. This has hit him quite badly, even though he’s ten years older than most professionals when they retire from the same sport. And I’m struggling to know how best to be a true friend to him in these circumstances: he isn’t comfortable talking about innermost thoughts and feelings even though, in a totally out of character move, he has recently started going to church because he finds it “comforting”. When I’m with him it often feels like being in the passenger seat of a car being driven at 120mph towards a brick wall – and I want to do more for him than just grab the steering wheel at the last minute, because that last minute is inevitably, always too late.

2) Totally unprompted, an ex-bf of mine recently sent me an email with links to the profiles of his recent shags on GayRomeo. They were all about 15 years younger than him and I think it was his way of saying “Happy Birthday to me – I can still pull guys this young and good looking”. But why does he feel the need to broadcast it and let me know? Is he trying to gloat? Is he still bitter, twelve years later, that I finished the relationship?

3) I like the photograph of Dan Stevens in my avatar as I feel it says something about me, namely that you’re more likely to find me conversing and discoursing in a coffee house than you are dancing shirtless in a nightclub. But, as Dan is fifteen years younger than me, I decided it was time for something more age-appropriate and went on a three-month avatar hunt (with temporary architectural substitutes) for an alternative - and found absofcukinglutely nothing that I liked. And so have ended up back where I started. Is that a model for life as a middle-aged gay man?

4) In a parallel universe, if Bob Bergeron had lived and published his book the substantive and legitimate criticisms of it made in this thread could have been the insight that made him realize his book would not stand up to wider scrutiny and may have resulted in the end of his career as a therapist. But suicide is not the only response to that – I know several people who have created fulfilling and worthy second careers for themselves and there is no indignity in doing so.

5) I’m also reminded of the line from Company: something about “there’s a time to come to New York and a time to leave”. I think that can be re-interpreted as learning to challenge yourself, learning to recognise your limitations and then learning to adjust to them. Maybe Bob Bergeron didn’t make the latter two, but if so that is tragic not just because he was a therapist but also because he didn't have the circle of love and support from friends and family. Or he didn't let them love and support him. And that brings me back to my first point.





Updated On: 4/5/12 at 06:49 AM

[TxTwoStep]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 8:01am

i think there are also two other things at play here, both in his tragedy and in some of the reactions in this very thoughtful thread:

a) the general American trend toward extending adolescence. You see it everywhere, that youth culture is a commodity. Casual Fridays at work, workout clothing in every class and every location in the country (flip flops famously at the White House, as close to a royal audience as we get these days), jeans as everyday pants, Viagra, acne medicines pitched endlessly on TV and in airports, the use of pop music and rap to sell ANYTHING anywhere, etcetera. This crosses sexual preference and gender lines, it is our fascination with remaining young and our determination to never have a generation gap because that means someone is on the fuddier side of it.

b) the subset for one presumes a majority of gay men, who during their actual adolescence, because of fear or bullying or the wrong societal cues, chose to hide or minimize the "sowing of their wild oats." They watched as others who fit in more socialized and dated and were infatuated with each other and their youthfulness...then, later, as the ostracized, as they became more integrated with more experience and found themselves without the too-early offspring of the hetero models...had money to spend on recreating such juvenile pursuits. They were almost literally "high school but with money this time"...and they avail themselves. What we forgive in someone 17 to 21, we sometimes revile in someone from 30 to 40. Look at JERSEY SHORE. Look at the many times on FRIENDS they bemoaned turning thirty. And more seriously, look at how in this job market many feel they have to lie about their age and appear younger but with amazing credits.

Then, there is the inevitable...the moments we become what we derided as a juveniles. And understandably, we try to put off those sudden glimpses in an all too real mirror (Will Truman looking at himself over the fireplace in his sleeveless A&F tee and then going with Karen for Botox injections). As a restless youth i often would go, but not dance, to the big wild bars in Hotlanta. i'd see men of say 35 to 45 there, and as someone who did not drink much at all and never danced, i had plenty of time to witness their joined desire to still be "there" and their shunning by their younger fellows. i vowed never to be "that old man" and avoid such dance bars now...unless it's for a benefit (and by that i don't mean a circuit party). IF i do go to a large benefit that is outdoors, or a walk of any sort to raise money, i keep my shirt on, despite the pecs of all seasons that choose otherwise...not because i don't like my pecs or nips, but because i hate my uneven chest hair pattern and also hate shaving it...and because i'd rather wear a shirt than change my diet or exercise to get rid of my potbelly.

i make my choices (including as many long sleeve tee's as possible, since about age thirteen, as i have these THE NIGHT BEFORE HALLOWEEN style long skinny arms) and i live with them. So do others, who probably think of me as "hot" in the WRONG way in such gear.

And for whoever pointed out that such choices on either end of the spectrum are fine if they are not turned into a philosophy for others: of course you are right, particularly if such philosophy is also the way you pay your rent. But the lessons are learned and repeated, whether they are admitted or not. This particular guy paid the ultimate price for his. He is a good moral lesson now for others hopefully more evolved.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 10:32am

What you're describing TX is what it's like to live under free market capitalism where there's always a better product around the corner to purchase in order to create a better version of yourself, the ultimate product. Bob Bergeron even went so far as to encourage people on the external packaging of themselves, without once questioning whether or not this market-based template even made sense when talking about human interaction, or whether or not there was something inside the package worth looking at.

Gay men are no more or less vulnerable to the messages designed to cause a this particular anxiety that can only be soothed through purchasing power than any other suckers born under this whole stinking system. All humans have insecurities, like Scripps's friend, and there is no better consumer than one whose insecurities run so deep they can easily be convinced there's a fix-it product for sale.

I would caution you, TX, about generalizing about all gay men going through the same patterns, earning money and having no kids to spend it on, etc. That too is an advertising hook!

I kind of lucked out when I was in my late-teens because I was a fan of punk rock and couldn't have been less interested in trying to fit in with the disco bunnies standing behind a velvet rope begging a door man to approve of their polyester pants so they could go dance to disco music. It must have been my working class roots that rejected all that aspirational Michael in The Boys in the Band BS.

Over the next decade, I was always a bit shocked that the mainstream gay world seemed so homogenized, but again, why should it be any different than the rest of the population in that regard? We aren't in reality "all" creative and smart and inventive and whatever positive generalizations have flown over the years, either.

A decade or so after that, I moved in a circle of queer writerly types and making snarky comments about the world around us came as naturally as breathing. That went on for about five years until I got together with my current partner, he had been in no way a part of that world. And I caught myself when I went to make a snarky comment about, for example, a 55 year old guy in a Hollister t-shirt with his baseball cap pulled down to his chin. I thought, "Who exactly is he hurting? Is he happy??? What if he's happy? Who am I to criticize?"

From that moment I have made an effort to say to my bf when I see somebody who might have earned a crack from me, "As long as he's happy!" It went from a behavioral modification exercise I gave myself to a subtle shift in my philosophy.

And THAT'S what still takes my breath away about the Bob Bergeron story. He appears to have been a deeply unhappy person trying to sell the key to happiness to an audience he was trying to provoke anxiety in in the first place.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 11:16am

This thread has a lot of wisdom and and lot of honesty--and a lot of hard-earned insight. That's also true of other discussions I've seen about this on Facebook and in real life.

Sad to say, but I think Bob Bergeron may be doing more good for more people after his death (and because of his death) than he ever was able to do while he was alive.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 11:32am

^
Agreed.

[DottieD'Luscia]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 11:43am

PalJoey, this thread is definitely a lot more thought provoking in comparison to the same subject on a different forum.

[TxTwoStep]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 12:20pm

sorry if my use of "most" generalized too much about gay men in general. The edit should read "most gay men of my acquaintance".