US Gay Secession...- Page 2

[Elphaba]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 4:35pm

I think the day is a perfect choice....for a couple of reasons....MLK DID believe in equality for all, yet 75% of his brothers in CA voted AGAINST gay marriage.

I think it is most fitting doing this on his day.

[Q]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 4:39pm

MeJust - after ALL this time, do you STILL not get papa's style of posting?

Good, grief.

[FlyingMonkey1223]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 4:48pm

Why is everyone so against admitting to the fact that the majority of black people are homophobic? No one is saying go out and assault a black person, or call them racist names, but we are saying that the black community needs to wake up! I have no idea what area people live in where the think that black people are so loving to gay people, but it's not an area I have ever visited in California or out of it.

As I've said in previous posts, we should use the data to outreach to ALL minority groups we missed. We missed the black group because people were afraid of the knowledge that black people are very homophobic and so we failed to reach them to change their minds.

Not every black person is against gay rights, but all of my gay black friends can attest to the fact that there is an overwhelming bigotry against gay people ESPECIALLY in the black community. I think everyone is pointing fingers at the black community simply because they expected a group who were treated so horribly would be more understanding but what we found out is that blacks are only against bigotry if it's directed at them.

That may seem like a racist statements, but it's not meant to be. It's simply the facts.

However, I think it would be more productive to target RELIGIONS other then RACES when dealing with this issue, as the black vote was, for the most part, a RELIGIOUS vote.
Updated On: 11/7/08 at 04:48 PM

[dramarama2]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 4:49pm

sigh........

[artscallion]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 4:50pm

I'm certainly not against taking some organized action against this injustice. But this plan strikes me in the same way as those, "nobody buy gas on Tuesday!" emails do. It doesn't effect consumption, or sales taxes or anything. it just delays it for a day. If I need to go grocery shopping on 1/19 and don't, I'll probably just buy more beforehand in anticipation or go on the 20th instead.

These plans are so easy for the intended object to ignore because they know you're not going to consume less. You're just going to change the day you do it on.

If I'm wrong, talk me down. But I don't think change like this comes so easily. We need marches, protests and rallies, out where people can see us. I've been to hundreds of vigils, marches and rallies over the years fighting for marriage equality. And there are seldom more than a dozen other 'regular' people who show up.

The gay community has become complacent. Gay pride parades and festivals have become nothing more than drunken go-go boy parties. If all these plans, letters and outrage were happening before this proposition was voted on, it might not have passed. The straight community won't, and has no reason to change this for us. If we want change, we have to get out there, get dirty and FIGHT for our rights!

Rant over. I am receptive to being convinced otherwise and am keenly aware that some in this thread DO fight the fight I'm talking about on a daily basis.

Updated On: 11/7/08 at 04:50 PM

[Q]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 4:51pm

"blacks are only against bigotry if it's directed at them."

You're right, that does seem like a racist statement. I'm assuming that's because it is.

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 5:01pm

No but what is and WAS racist is the CNN poll that people on this board and all over the media that blamed blacks for the passage of Prop 8.


Statistically it was impossible for that 70% (not 75%) of black vote to have impacted the vote EITHER way. Yet they still got blamed for "pushing it over." It was impossible.

There is also a myth that blacks are MORE homophobic than whites. This is just not true.

"Why is everyone so against admitting to the fact that the majority of black people are homophobic?"

What are you basing this prejudice on? Seriously? That CNN Poll? Do you understand how small the poll of people that was AND blacks were TARGETED in CA so they would vote YES on Prop 8

I am against it because I have not seen ANY EVIDENCE proving this point.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 5:09pm

Okay, I got out a calculator and did the math:

The exit poll said that 49% of white voters made up 63% of the vote and that 70% of black voters made up 10% of the vote.

In other words of the 10 million people voted, 3,087,000 WHITE voters voted for the amendment and 700,000 BLACK voters voted for it.

So 2,300,000 more white bigots in California voted against us than black bigots.

Satisfied, MeJust?

Now...why don't you address the fact that the EXIT POLL said that 70% of all the AA's who voted happened to vote YES and 74% of the AA women.

That's an EXIT POLL of voters, taken as they EXIT the POLL.

That's NOT BWW posters saying the 700,000 AA voters "tipped the election." But 700,000 votes IMPACTED it.


Every single vote impacts an election. You know that.

Learn to drop the R Bomb ONLY when there's real racism. Otherwise you're like the Boy Who Cried Wolf.

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 5:15pm

I joined because I agree - we need to be heard, en masse.

I also commented that we need to find an alternate date.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 5:26pm

Artscallion, I kind of assumed there WOULD be some sort of demonstration or rally on the day, and that it wouldn't be just about not buying anything, but I think your points are well taken.

It's up to us in various cities to make sure that IF we are going to go through with this that there IS some sort of actual protest or demonstration in our city. I agree that it's pointless without it.

If all these plans, letters and outrage were happening before this proposition was voted on, it might not have passed.

Again, I agree with you 100%. That said, it DOES seem that the passage of Prop 8 may have been a watershed moment for gays and their supporters throughout the country. It may be our national Stonewall - where we've finally been shaken out of our complacency and say "Enough!"

I've been trying to quell my rage with silver linings lately, and the best I can do is think that if it hadn't passed, we'd all sit back and wait to see what happened next and where, much like what happened after Massachusetts. This is what I believe and I hope I'll be proven right. And I intend to get out there and start working for change instead of waiting for others to make changes for me.

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 5:27pm

"Now...why don't you address the fact that the EXIT POLL said that 70% of all the AA's who voted happened to vote YES and 74% of the AA women. "

As I mentioned before the CNN poll is scant in detail when it comes to black voters. That said, there is a lot of evidence as mentioned in my earlier thread that black voters were targeted by Yes on Prop 8. Target with phone calls and mailers stating that "Barack Obama supports Prop 8 and you should vote with him."

Now you mention women, how many of these are church going women? That takes them out of the minority and into another. Regardless of their skin color they may have voted in line with the church.

Now PJ, the 70% is NOT where I'm calling racism. I'm calling racism in every thread and post and news article I read that suggests black people are the REASON THIS PASSED. Or that suggests black people are MORE HOMOPHOBIC THAT WHITE.

Yes it's right here on this board.

Now people are drawing these conclusions despite the fact that it is not possible for blacks to have impacted this vote, the CNN exit poll is scant in it's detail of black voters, (ie there is no undecided tally), and we have no idea why these people voted the way they did.

Everyone just assume that all of these votes for Prop 8 were homophobic. I just can't believe that. I think there was a lot of confusion and a lot of tactics used to win this vote. Prop 8 bought this ban.

[LePetiteFromage]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 5:31pm

Updated On: 1/10/09 at 05:31 PM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 5:37pm

Well, if you're not calling ME racist, I'm not sure who ELSE you're calling racist. I'm the one who posted the exit poll. I don't know anyone who is saying the 70% are the "reason" the vote passed.

Besides, exit poll or no exit poll, there is widespread and widely acknowledged homophobia in the black community. It's what fuels the institution of the Down Low and it deserves its own discussion, absent any accusation of racism.

I posted the exit poll because I found the 70% (and 74% of black women) shocking and upsetting. I still do.

That said, I still say the organizers of this event NEED to change the date or get some lesbian and gay black activists on board. I have suggested Keith Boykin and Pam Spaulding.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 5:38pm

They fought it before the election but the Supreme Court didn't want to deal with it--as courts will try to get out of having to rule on such things if they can. I think like most people, the Court just assumed it would failed and be over with.

So now that it has most likely passed, they will have to deal with it.

[Calvin]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 5:38pm

LPF, they tried that -- but the courts declined to hear it at that point, saying that if it failed, it would be a moot point, anyway.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 5:46pm

I would guess to give "the people" the benefit of the doubt, Fromage. Because we all know how "the people" are just bending over themselves to support gay people.

Another problem (and YES, I understand why it's impossible to do this Federally) is that it's been made a state issue. Like it or not, it's hard sometimes for a midwesterner (or a southwesterner or whatever) to get all worked up over what's happening elsewhere because - and I'll say this with none of the rancor I have said it with the other day - it's not like the people en masse were trying to prevent the 25 other states who ameneded their consitutions to prevent gays from marrying. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just sayin'.

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 5:56pm

"Well, if you're not calling ME racist, I'm not sure who ELSE you're calling racist. I'm the one who posted the exit poll. I don't know anyone who is saying the 70% are the "reason" the vote passed."

PJ I'm not calling you a racist but I can sift through the other Prop 8 threads on this board and show you people that said rascist statements right off about this poll. And yes the assumption was that it passed because of them.

What's even worse this is whats being talked about in the media. It's just crazy.

"How nice ... the oppressed have become the oppressors. "

"I knew, deep in my heart, that African/Americans were not going to let this pass. They are still mad about the whole “DL” thing and getting caught. YES, BLACK FOLKS, YOU DO HAVE GAYS AMONGST YOU! STOP IGNORING FACTS!"


"Like it or not, the huge showing for Obama hurt the chances of defeating Prop 8. That means, there is work to be done educating the Black Community about the issue. "

"Education is needed - but that community is still to blame so lets not pretend otherwise. As I said earlier .... the oppressed have become the oppressors. "

[artscallion]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 6:03pm

"It may be our national Stonewall - where we've finally been shaken out of our complacency and say "Enough!"

You have a very good point there, Phyllis. It certainly seems to have woken up a lot of people. I think we can become isolated in our safe little worlds full of friends and people who accept us or are otherwise not in a position to even broach the subject with us. So we can wander around oblivious to the amount of prejudice that still surrounds us. I think many, many people were truly quite surprised when confronted with the results of this prop 8 vote.

It kind of hurts to be surprised by hate like this. To realize that more than half the folks you pass on the street, or work with, or wave to when you pull into your driveway think you're an aberration, dangerous to their children. Especially when you felt, all the while that you were just one of the gang. It's like a cold wet slap in the face.

I hope this does make people mad enough (and stay mad enough!) to fight us into the next stage.

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 6:12pm

As a liberal it just apalls me that legistlation can be brought up like this and a state constitution can be changed with cash.

The government is in place to protect us and our rights. The idea that private citizens and groups can push legistlation that breaks federal law is incredible. Or even put these issues up for debate.

I don't know anyone that was surprised by the passage of Prop 8 outside the gay community. All my friends and family think it will "works it's way out in state courts." Well guess what? It isn't working out.

Whether or not our fellow citizens like our skin color, our religions, our age, our body parts or our sexuality they should not be allowed to create law that is discriminatory. It's the least we can expect from our government. Yet here it is.

The time is coming. Where is our gay MLK?

[Elphaba]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 6:35pm

"Why is everyone so against admitting to the fact that the majority of black people are homophobic?"

maybe because intelligent people do not make sweeping generalizations about a segment of the population

[FlyingMonkey1223]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 7:24pm

It's not a sweeping generalization, it's the truth.

The majority of Evangelical Christians are against gays. That's not a sweeping generalization, it's the truth. I know some Evangelicals WHO ARE NOT against gay-marriage, but they admit most of those they know and who attend their church and make up their social circle ARE against gay-marriage.

The majority of republicans are against gay-marriage. My family is heavily republican but FAVORS gay-marriage and voted NO on 8 and gave money to the NO on 8 campaign.

Obviously not everyone who is black or religious or republican is anti-gay, but it would also be stupid of us to assume that they are in support of us when they are clearly not. We need to use this info to try and target these people and inform them of their bigotry.

We can complain about the mormon church and no one says anything, but the second we mention black people being bigoted people jump down our throats. I know some mormons who are asahmed of their church in regards to this issue, but the majority of mormon favor anti-gay laws. I also have many black friends who are very sad that their community turned their back on the gay issue...but they felt that they would because of blatant homophobia in the black community, more so then ANY OTHER RACIAL COMMUNITY.


Updated On: 11/7/08 at 07:24 PM

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 8:34pm

It kind of hurts to be surprised by hate like this. To realize that more than half the folks you pass on the street, or work with, or wave to when you pull into your driveway think you're an aberration, dangerous to their children. Especially when you felt, all the while that you were just one of the gang. It's like a cold wet slap in the face.

Before I moved to glorious and liberal (and fricking freezing) haven that is Chicago, I lived in St Louis. In 2004, a proposition was put on the ballot to amend the state constitution to ban gay marriage. It was the first state to do so after Massachusetts made it legal. It passed with SEVENTY percent approval. SEVENTY PERCENT! What you wrote up there artscallion describes exactly how I felt during that time.

I hope this does make people mad enough (and stay mad enough!) to fight us into the next stage.

Amen.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 8:36pm

And for what it's worth, the admittedly small and skewed handful of African American people I have spoken with about planning a protest on this day have all virtually said the same thing - feathers will be ruffled no matter what, and Martin Luther King favored CIVIL RIGHTS for all, which is what this is all about.

[FlyingMonkey1223]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 10:17pm

Patricia Heaton of Everybody Loves Raymond fame, said on her radio today that she was very happy that Prop 8 passed and that it was the will of God. Pathetic.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 11/7/08 at 10:49pm

In other news, this comforting quote from the Obama/Biden Transition policies:

"The Obama-Biden Transition Project does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, age, national origin, veteran status, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, or any other basis of discrimination prohibited by law."

Fully inclusive.