White Privilege- Page 3
White Privilege
touchmeinthemorning
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/3/04
#50.
Posted: 3/9/06 at 3:49pm
bway, i don't think it is something we choose to do or not to do in America. It is just something the system is designed to do for us.
When you meet someone from a culture you've never seen before, you find out about their culture THROUGH them. If you find out you are wrong later, you realize how simple your view was. This article is written to let us know that we evaluate people and categorize people in monolythic ways that don't allow for variation in the performance of culture. It also lets us know that MAJORITY members are priveledged in that their behavior isn't as scrutinized simply by the fact that they have more people to write behavior on their body from previous experiences with bodies like theirs.
touchmeinthemorning
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/3/04
#53.
Posted: 3/9/06 at 3:56pm
touch, i love it when you talk about bodies.
sg, you're wearing far too many clothes to go where i am going.
i apologize for the threadjack. i don't mean to diminish in any way the interesting and illuminating debate ongoing here, so i'll get back on topic.
i think that if the article stimulates discussion like this, then it's served its purpose. whether or not one agrees with the particulars of the article, which as the token straight white man of the gang i don't perticularly do, thoughtful discussion of race is something that we cannot do enough.
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colleen_lee
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/16/05
#54.
Posted: 3/9/06 at 3:57pmMy post is stuck in no man's land. If you click on page 3, it doesn't show up, but if you're on page 2 and click "next page" it is right there.
#55white privilege
Posted: 3/9/06 at 3:58pm
And can't you relate to some of this as a gay man? I know co-workers have spoken to me like I'm the spokesperson for the gay population.
Yes, I can. And the fact that I'm white and can relate to these things is the entire problem I have with the article. By trying to prove her point -- that majority races tend to lump the minority race into some monolithic group (and she's right; they do) -- she's now doing the same thing to her own race and implying that there's some great, universal white experience. It's the way she's saying:"As a white person, I'll never have any of these problems." Maybe not. But it has to do with a lot more than just her being white.
#56white privilege
Posted: 3/9/06 at 4:00pmBut she says that in the article...that it has alot more to do than with just being white.
#57white privilege
Posted: 3/9/06 at 5:31pmI'm just going to attack the article for being long-winded and extremely repetitive. Is that a white privilege too?
Kringas
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/27/05
#58white privilege
Posted: 3/10/06 at 1:28am
Angry Black Bitch on Privilege
#60white privilege
Posted: 3/10/06 at 8:18am
If someone would give her a radio show (or hell, a podcast), I'd like her to speak for the entire black experience in America.
but I guess if I did have that much white privilege, I'd be able to give that to her in my righteousness.
Oh, one thing about, "But she says that in the article...that it has alot more to do than with just being white."
This certainly tends to contradict her point, then, doesn't it? Yes, SOMETIMES things happen because of race. But it's almost impossible these days to boil everything that happens to you down to the simplest factor of it involving your race. It DOES involve your sex, your sexuality, your physical appearance (outside of your race, I'm talking size, perceived beauty, manner of clothing), your economic status (when known)...
To just pop up and say, "if you're white, you get this" is a bit disingenuous.
#61white privilege
Posted: 3/10/06 at 8:22am
You're making it all too simple bwaysinger. That's not what she's saying.
What she is saying that if there is an opressed minority in society than the people who don't belong to that group gain something from them being opressed. All those points that she listed are how she feels SHE benefits as an educated, white, woman in her particular socioeconomic class. What she is saying is that this a factor not the absolute end all discussion on race and prejudice.
And I don't think angry black bitch ever claimed to speak for the entire black race.
#62white privilege
Posted: 3/10/06 at 8:35am
I was joking about ABB. It was in...oh, forget it. This thread was clearly not started in order for anyone to disagree.
I'm simple. I'm white. I'm obviously opressing everyone and benefitting from it. When I figure out what that benefit is, I'll let you know.
#64white privilege
Posted: 3/10/06 at 8:55am
I SO don't want to get in the middle of this. But I have to respond to this:
"Chita, peep my reply above when you get a chance. I spent some time down in PR years ago. On that island nobody and I mean nobody would dare make an issue of another boricua's color. It’s just not done and color is not the all consuming social issue there."
Like Chita, I'm also from Puerto Rico. Until this past August, I'd lived there my entire life. Spending time in Puerto Rico in no way qualifies you to know about our issues with race. Saying that "it's just not done" is not only overly simplistic, but completely inaccurate.
While it's true that in Puerto Rico the disparaging issue is more social/economical than racial, to dismiss any notions of racism is completely misleading. It's true that race distinctions aren't as clear as they are in the US. People are Puerto Rican, not white or black. Some have lighter skin, others darker. As a whole, we don't view ourselves as being either "white" or "black". We're ALL boricuas. However, there's a VERY strong undercurrent of racism in our culture. One that may not be noticeable to people who visit the island, but it's there. And perhaps because it's more underneath the surface, it's more dangerous. Because we convince ourselves that racism simply doesn't exist in Puerto Rico. And that is simply NOT the case.
There have been MANY books written on the subject of our cultural heritage. Traditionally (and this was mostly due to Antonio S Pedreira's highly racist and influential essay "Insularismo") Puerto Rican culture has been linked to Spain more than any other. Puerto Ricans saw themselves as being descendants from Spanish culture, and little to no relevance was given to our Taino (thought to be almost unexistant) or African roots. The fact that we were descendants from slaves was always a taboo subject in literature and the arts. A common refrain in the 50's was "Y tu abuela, a onde esta?" (Where are you hiding your grandmother?) This came from a practice among upper class Puerto Ricans to hide the people in their family tree who were of darker skin. There are accounts (although highly exaggerated) of people who would literally lock up their grandparents who were black, in order to appear more "white". Even in other cultural aspects, the "official" Puerto Rican music was the danza, which is descended from Spain. Salsa, or plena, or any other African influenced music was censored.
The landscape soon began to change, thanks in great part to Luis Pales Mato's poetry (which seeked to retake our African roots) and influential essays by Jose Luis Gonzalez. The latter sought to de-mistify the notion Pedreira had put forth, that Puerto Rican culture was mostly "Spanish" (ie white). He claimed that our culture has been MUCH more influenced by our African roots; from the music we play, to the food we eat, and the words we use. When I was an undergraduate student, I took a course on Puerto Rican literature. And it was amazing to discuss that we're STILL trying to demistify Pedreira's essay. Our literary canon STILL consists of works written by upper class descendants of slave owners, ie, the "white" Puerto Rican culture. It's starting to change, but it's something we in the Academic world are STILL struggling with.
But even though salsa, and plena are not only no longer censored, but have WAY outlasted the "danza" as our music, there still remains a general climate of refusing to acknowledge our African roots.
I have known MANY, but MANY people in Puerto Rico who are overtly racist. My grandmother was, unfortunately, one of them. She'd talk about her gardener and say "He's black. But he's really nice". I had friends whose parents were often shocked if they dated someone whose skin was darker. Apart from that, you also notice enormous disparity of color in relation to social status. That is, the better a person's economic situation, the lighter the color of their skin. I went to a private school. In a class of over 100, only 2 of my classmates had dark skin. Whereas you go to the poorest districts, and you'll find people tend to be darker. There are exceptions, of course, as in anything.
But the simple fact that 80% of the population listed themselves as being "white" in the census, shows that there's still an enormous taboo when it comes to race. Even though we're mixed, most people prefer to say they're "white" than to say they're "black".
Ok, I've drone on for way too long. I hope what I said was somewhat coherent. And I REALLY don't mean this as a flame war. I'm sensitive when it comes to people discussing my culture. I'm open to discussing disparaging views, but I truly DO believe that dismissing the racial issue in Puerto Rico is wrong.
#65white privilege
Posted: 3/10/06 at 8:56am
Please, feel free. As she obviously knows me, you obviously know me and can speak, simply on the basis of my being white, EXACTLY what I benefit from.
You keep accusing me of being simple but look at what she's written. Some of her points, when not simple, are downright laughable.
12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
You don't even have to go beyond the first portion of this sentence today to see how off she is here. Rather, not off, but this is not a simple case of white privilege. My backwoods WHITE hometown's Wal-Mart has as many Hip-hop and latin-flavored selections as it does country.
11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.
This is truly something afforded us by White privilege? That we dismiss anyone who speaks on the basis of their race?
2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.
This is a rather odd and vague statement here. It's also assuming you were "Trained" to mistrust some kind of people.
10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
Number 10 is contradictory to number 2, especially if those people, as she must assume by her statement in number 2, have learned to mistrust her or her kind.
36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.
Again, that's a little simple, too.
37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.
So general it's hardly worth talking about, especially if you're trying to say it's impossible for someone to find someone as a career advisor because of color.
42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.
Anyone can do this.
49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.
This one seems as much about sexuality as it does race.
And, again, I'm not sitting here trying to say things are NEVER racial in this country; they most certainly are. But the converse of a statement, while SOMETIMES true, is not ALWAYS true. So White people as a whole could not necessarily be seen as benefitting from white privilege any more than every black person or someone of any other race is ALWAYS a victim of racism.
Sometimes. Many times. But not always.
#66white privilege
Posted: 3/10/06 at 9:03am
I have to go to work but here's a few off the top of my head.
If you happend to find yourself convicted of a capital crime you are less likely to receive the death penalty..because of the color of your skin.
If you ever find yourself driving down the NJ Turnpike you don't have to worry about being profiled because of the color of your skin.
If you are convicted of a crime you are more likely to receive a lesser sentence than someone who is black.
#67white privilege
Posted: 3/10/06 at 9:06am
But I ask again, is this really more the converse benefit of white privilege or just the overt racism at work? In other words, as she says, we must fight to overturn white privilege rather than end conscious racism.
By that token, we should not fight to end profiling or harsher sentences for people of other race, but profiling of all races and harsher prison sentences for anyone convicted of a similar crime.
#68white privilege
Posted: 3/10/06 at 11:11am
BroadwayChica, Thanks for your insights on the subject in the context of PR. I was really reticent to touch upon the topic owing to the fact that one, I am not Puerto Rican, and two I thought an extended discussion in that regard was outside the scope of the thread. That said, I have traveled quite a bit throughout Latin America and lived previously with a woman who is Puerto Rican for several years. However, I in no way meant to gloss over the subject of Taino/Spanish/African heritage or the challenges the folks in PR have faced living up its claim of a color-blind society in public. I will hazard to offer though that the racial situation on that island is still better than it is in other parts of Latin America outside of Cuba, Brazil and the Dominican Republic.
This topic really deserves its own thread. I’m fluent in the Puerto Rican version of the language; most of my crew on this end hails from the island (not NYC) and I know the God-awful jokes about “la nena casandose con un changito o bembon, etc”. The point I wanted to make but failed to was that in PR today in one family you can easily encounter siblings of every hue imaginable and it is not looked upon as an anomaly. Yeah, there are pockets of darkness and lightness on that island still but is not as rigidly enforced by law or fiat as it is in many of the states (especially the old south). Mayaguez has a somewhat darker population in part because it’s the side of the island facing D.R. and that was the port of entry to many and Haitians seeking exile through the years.
The other point is that many of the whitest families (with all respect) on the island that I visit on occasion will in fact greet me with “ven aca mi negrito” which is a term of endearment, not scorn, and not a way in which any white person in the states would address me because it just ain’t the protocol. Furthermore, when the late Puerto Rican baseball great Roberto Clemente landed in Pittsburg, PA back in the day, he discovered a whole new world that required that he (a Puerto Rican) live on a side of the city designated for persons of color (by real estate agents), a practice completely foreign to him according to his biographers. Please don’t think that I was doing your culture an injustice because my aim was to praise it because in my mind it’s light years ahead of states and most of Latin America in terms of race relations. In 2006, Univision seems totally oblivious to darker-skinned women in Mexico when it comes to casting lead actresses in the “novelas” or as hosts of popular award shows, a subject which I could go on about for days.
Coincidentally, the ugly little secret of black America (gosh, I hate the designation) is that we are not one cultural monolith that many think either. Prior to and after the emancipation, social status, money, and skin tone have played a HUGE part in how WE socialize for marriage, commerce, politics and religion. In the not so distant past, most of the African American elected officials had to be, in the parlance of some of my older family members, “light, bright, and damned near white”. Further the first black enrollees in the nation’s college and universities (that admitted blacks before the 50s) fit that description more often than not. Many were near descendants of domestic servants (“house hands”) while those blacks that were descendants of field hands who remained in the Jim Crow South didn’t advance as rapidly and not always on account of their own doing.
Before I wear out your patience with this rambling post, I will try to sum up my response to your charges. The long and short of it is that it really doesn’t matter if any of our forbearers who were slaves at some point or indentured servants picked cotton, cropped tobacco or broke sugar cane in the New World as each nation adopted its own color line with folks fighting like Hell to line up on the right side of it in their own interest. Jim Crow, 1/16 rules, segregated school systems are quick examples. My late great-grandma who was half-white often laid out the ground rules for me by stating “it’s always been about who is fair enough to pass for white and who has no other choice but to be something else”. Her Mom spent years trying to pass her off as a white child because with that designation came priveleges. Perhaps I’m guilty of over-simplifying the situation in PR, but the author of piece at the center of this debate glossed over several volumes of details about white privilege. To close, given a choice this black guy picks Puerto Rico any day over my home state of North Carolina. That state is still not big enough to hold both Jesse Helms and me.
#69white privilege
Posted: 3/10/06 at 2:51pmI think what she is saying is that recognizing privilege and being willing to work to give it up is part of the process, not the solution to the country's race issue.
#70white privilege
Posted: 3/10/06 at 2:57pm
But because it's so unquantifiable, it's a hard thing to say you can give up.
To quote one of your own examples, how can I give up the privilege of not being a victim of racial profiling while driving? We can work from the OTHER end to stop racial profiling but I don't see how you can give up the converse.
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