britain proves that gun laws prevent gun-related massacres- Page 2

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 6/3/10 at 2:18pm

"In the UK, you're allowed to use reasonable force against an intruder. If you use anything weapon-like - rifle, bread knife, ornamental sword - then that's deemed unreasonable."

That, to my mind, is completely unreasonable (I almost prefaced that with "sorry, but", but I really hate it when people say that when they're not a bit sorry - and I'm not). If someone is an intruder in your home, any form of defense is warranted and reasonable. Christ, why not make 'em comfortable with a nice hot cup o' tea?

"You can defend yourself without going to the silly extreme of martial arts or the terrifying extreme of guns."

Really? I can understand where you're coming from with the latter, but on the former? That's offensive to me. The martial arts in its many forms is a respected discipline throughout the ages, and isn't silly at all. Have you ever been assaulted in your own home? No? Come back and speak to me then about the silliness of martial arts, nevermind the guns.

"I love a great many things about you, America, but your love affair with guns is NOT one of 'em. :/ "

A grand sweeping statement. For the record, I do not carry a gun, nor do I keep any in my NYC home. I do not have a "love affair" with guns, nor do I think many Americans do. I follow the law, and keep my guns and use them in a lawful way, in a place where they are useful. You're from a different culture and a different upbringing. I respect that. Please respect mine.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 6/3/10 at 2:25pm

I don't believe Weez mentioned you, ghostlight.

[Weez]

Posted: 6/3/10 at 2:29pm

Really? I can understand where you're coming from with the latter, but on the former? That's offensive to me. The martial arts in its many forms is a respected discipline throughout the ages, and isn't silly at all. Have you ever been assaulted in your own home? No? Come back and speak to me then about the silliness of martial arts, nevermind the guns.

You want to talk about disrespecting martial arts, then talk to the people earlier in the thread yammering about ...

Actually, I've gone back in the thread, and it's you. C'mon, if you don't want people to assume you think the martial arts are silly, then don't say things like "How does one protect oneself without a gun? Ju-Jitso?". :P

The rest of my point still stands: most homes contain frying pans, heavy books, cricket bats, all sorts of things that you would reasonably find in a peaceful home that can be more easily used to disable than kill an intruder. I'm sure I probably could kill someone with a cricket bat, but it would be much easier with a gun, and I could NOT live with that on my conscience.

Updated On: 6/3/10 at 02:29 PM

[songanddanceman2]

Posted: 6/3/10 at 2:32pm

"I take from your post that you're from Cumbria and English is your first language, or do you originally speak the Gaelic, S&Dman2? I ask because some of your post is difficult to follow."

Sorry i was typing on my phone as i am now so it's a bit all over the place. However the fact you attacked on that front first of all really does not help the rest of your post. And yes im from the UK and no im not from Cumbria.

"It's also difficult to have a discussion with someone who simply deems someone else's thoughts as "stupid" and represents their point of view as "blah blah blah". It's like a child sticking their fingers in their ears and saying "La la la, can't hear you"."

I did not call anyones thoughts 'stupid' i said the thread was stupid. As for the 'Blah Blah Blah' im sorry but that is how i feel. Its a poor and tired argument by people trying to justify the right to own guns. Those people seem to be unable to see that the rest of the civilized world seems to do fine without having to defend their homes with guns and those other countries have far lower gun crime statistics. It's kinda plain to see where that kind of thinking is flawed.

"The US does not equal the UK. For good or ill, things are different here. The very geography is different. With few exceptions, you don't have the concentrated groups of people that we have, and crime that can easily travel to quiet adjacent rural areas. You cannot always "rely on alarms, the police, etc" (whatever "etc" means) here."

That argument makes no sense at all. the small towns where these recent shootings have happened would be classed as rural. Im from a house in the middle of nowhere originally yet we had a city right next to us. Do you think we dont have rural areas, gangs, overspills from city life to country life?

And the amount of people what get themselves killed trying to protect their homes with guns is high, so i guess that works as well as Alarms or the police

Also, the US does not have "guns on the streets to the mass" (again, whatever that means).

"I agree that the original post was offensive, but why fight fire with fire - and so poorly at that? "

You mean like pulling out my spelling etc straight away?

I agree with Weez about the guns, i love America, great place, great people but the gun thing makes no sense what so ever.

Sorry but it's something im very passionate about. My last play was all about gun crime and school shootings and the 3 years of research we did in to it was terrifying.

Gun crime is high in America because guns are such a big business.

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 6/3/10 at 2:59pm

"I don't believe Weez mentioned you, ghostlight."

As Weez just pointed out, I was the only one to bring up martial arts, Reg, so it was obvious that she was talking to me.

Weez, martial arts are great as a basic defense, not to mention excellent exercise, but it won't be a great deal of help when you're woken in the middle of the night by the sounds of someone breaking into your house. I can say that from personal experience. Suffice it to say it wasn't sufficient to the task, and I was badly hurt. A gun would have been more helpful. Still, I find calling it a silly extreme offensive, and as Reg has said in the past, "If you're offended, then you're offended".

"Sorry but it's something im very passionate about."

Likewise, and not because I did a play about it. I have been assaulted in my own home (remember, I don't keep guns in my nyc home?), and I'm very passionate about the right to defend myself in my own home - by whatever force necessary. If the intruder suffers serious damage as a result, then yes, I can live with that.

"guns on the streets to the mass"

Your post was difficult to follow, and my pointing that out was not an attack. Were you saying that everyone in America has a gun? I honestly had no idea what you were talking about, S&Dman. For whatever reason, you weren't making yourself clear. Like this:

"The thing is something like what has happened here in cumbria is very rare."

When you say "here in Cumbria", that leads me to believe that you are, well, there in Cumbria. Pointing out that you're not making yourself clear is not making an attack, it's asking for clarification.

"And the amount of people what get themselves killed trying to protect their homes with guns is high, so i guess that works as well as Alarms or the police"

Again, source, please?

"As for the 'Blah Blah Blah' im sorry but that is how i feel."

Seriously, why say you're sorry when you're not? It serves only to indicate that you have no respect whatsoever for what the other person is saying.

Updated On: 6/3/10 at 02:59 PM

[Scripps2]

Posted: 6/3/10 at 3:05pm

"I don't believe Weez mentioned you, ghostlight."

And nor did I.

I've witnessed gun crime and had to give a statement to the police; I declined to be interviewed by the media but had the prospect of potentially being a witness at the subsequent murder trial.

But I don't live in fear. Instead I ask myself what I would have done in yesterday's circumstances? Would I, like the two village doctors, put myself at risk by tending to the wounded totally unprepared? Or would I stay inside and look after myself?

What I do know is that I'd never be so crass, ignorant and selfishly attention-seeking as to have started this thread in such a manner.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 6/3/10 at 3:06pm

Ghostlight, I wasn't talking about the martial arts bit, and neither was she at that point.

She said "I love a great many things about, America," and you responded with a demand that she respect your culture and upbringing.

That was the disconnect I was alluding to.

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 6/3/10 at 3:23pm

Fair enough Reg, but it wasn't a demand, but rather a request, with a "please" included, and given that Weez was referring to "frying pan", it seemed reasonable to me that she was referring to the discussion b/w myself and another poster. My apologies to Weez if I was incorrect.

"What I do know is that I'd never be so crass, ignorant and selfishly attention-seeking as to have started this thread in such a manner."

I was merely responding to your post, Scripps, as you were responding to the ones before yours. I didn't think it was directed to me. I would also like to point out that I did not start this thread and in fact have said that I found the original post offensive and despise the fact that anyone is using this tragedy for political purposes..

[WestEnd2]

Posted: 6/4/10 at 5:29am

The issue is, and I'm really not trying to offend anyone or irratate anyone with this - there are probably more criminals with guns in America than there are over here. Over here, if someone breaks into your house its very unlikely they have a gun or any weapon at all. In America, its slightly more likely that they could be carrying a gun. You hear about it happening more in America - whether that's statistically true or because its always blown up in the media, I don't know.

I can see both sides of the argument. I don't like guns, I will never own one, but I can see the American self defence argument for them. Although, I don't agree with the whole 'there is an intruder in my house and I'm going to shoot him' argument - what if this intruder isn't armed? Are you just going to shoot them anyway because they broke into your house?

It is impossible to compare the UK and US. The US has had and continues to have lighter gun control laws - this means that the guns are already out there in more numbers than in the UK. If you were to suddenly to ban guns in America, then the honest people who have guns for legal purposes and genuine self defence reasons will be the ones punished - not the ones who are using them for crime because the odds are, those are illegal guns anyway. What are they going to do, give their guns up? I think America is already past the point of no return, the guns aren't going to go away. The UK however, is not anywhere near that point.

As for what has happened in Cumbria - he was a a licensed gun owner (for 'fun' purposes I think, not hunting or farming or anything which I don't personally agree with but whatever). It is putting pressure on the government to crack down on gun laws again - but even I don't agree with that, because its punishing all for the actions of one, and really, who can predict when someone is going to snap and go stark raving bonkers? He could have just as easily run around with a knife.

As for what Weez was saying about 'Americans and their obsession with guns' - I don't know how much of this is true, and how much of it is the media. I've never actually met an American who owns a gun, but it is the perception we are often given over here by our media.
Updated On: 6/4/10 at 05:29 AM

[Eastwickian]

Posted: 6/4/10 at 6:21am

No-one was saying that gun ownership should be outlawed (it's not in the UK), just that maybe there should be much tougher controls and restrictions - it's 2010 and you're not all living in the Wild West any more. How about more initiatives to bring the gun crime down - maybe taxes from gun sales could be put directly into better resources to fight gun crime? You're never going to get rid of it altogether (as events in Cumbria have proved) but a lot more can be done. And I'm a bit confused by the original poster's bizarre approach - taking an isolated event which involved the deaths of 12 people and using it to create an argument AGAINST gun control laws!

The slightly polemical tone might put people off, but the facts from Bowling for Columbine are still frightening. Surely the solution to a society where you feel the need to protect yourself all the time should not just be 'buy more guns'?

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 6/4/10 at 6:35am

"Also, the US does not have "guns on the streets to the mass" (again, whatever that means)."

In the neighborhood where I teach, I could easily walk outside the building a buy a gun out of the trunk of a car if I wanted to. In the middle of the day.

[songanddanceman2]

Posted: 6/4/10 at 10:55am

Great post Eastwickian

And erm thanks for that ErikJ972, that was a great addition to a smart debate

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 6/4/10 at 10:59am

Erm..I was simply pointing out how insanely simple it is do obtain a gun here.