Caroline or Change ending POSSIBLE SPOILERS (maybe)- Page 2

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/30/04 at 10:36am

I'm going to say something completely controversial, but it needs to be said.

Sometimes, an interpretation can be dead wrong.

Now...that's not to say that I don't appreciate the thought put into a piece. And, to be honest, until very recently, I did not believe that an interpretation could be wrong.

But being in a production where the director read the script incorrectly made me change my mind. When I read the script myself, I thought it was fool-proof. And then I learned my lesson. This director got into his/her head that this show was about something else completely and directed it as such. Every choice, from costumes to set to casting, completely undermined the playwright's intent (which was VERY obvious from first read). It was unfortunate because many of us in the cast knew the potential in the script (and, to be honest, it was one of the best performances I've ever given). But we were hamstrung by a director who was more in love with his/her idea of the piece instead of the piece itself.

Now, CoC is replete with metaphor and is open to interpretation, so it's much easier to make a case for a different train of thought on this show than with the show I was actually in. However, as Margo stated, the intent of the show...the very point of it...would be undermined if Caroline were to die in the end.

[misterchoi]

Posted: 11/30/04 at 10:46am

I love everyone's answers and discussions. None of us has the ultimate wisdom about the true intent of the piece.

The show is not about what is real, but about dreams, and hopes, and human emotions. Caroline dies, and if I were to direct the epilogue it would make perfect sense.

Emmie is hurt, and through the epilogue and before it develops and projects final understanding of her mother, as she hadn't before. What would cause the epilogue if it wasn't her mother's death? or quitting? Emmie sings because she must live the way her mother never did while still honoring and keeping her mother alive. There is no reason Emmie has to be a maid. Dreams come true in Caroline, Or Change. Children who dream of money get money and their candy. Emmie dreams of change and becomes a changer herself. Caroline dreams of escape and she gets it.

The children are left with Caroline's hope and peace, not her terrible unempowering economically deteriorating death. Caroline has given them peace. They no longer have to be given money by middle class Jewish children. They have to change their lives in honor of their mother. It is bittersweet. It is hopeful. It is their dreams. Let momma rest, let us do what she couldn't.

And the piece is no longer in the hands of Tony Kushner. Our desire is to delve into the musical to find its intentions and motives, and as Tony has given it up to the world, it is our privilege to do so without running back and asking him. I am a playwright, and that is one of the joys of doing what I do.

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/30/04 at 10:52am

But it is also incredibly selfish to impose intentions that cannot be supported by the text just because one believes they know better.

I'm an actor (who has also directed quite a bit as well as written some). My job is to illuminate the work within the confines of the work.

There may be a spiritual death to Caroline in the end (MAY be), but the character of Caroline's heart does not actually stop and she's not actually buried.

[misterchoi]

Posted: 11/30/04 at 11:07am

Don't pontificate.

Discuss. There is NO reason why her heart couldn't stop in the end and the text allows (incredibly) for such an occurence. The results are not catastrophic and this event would not lead to the Thibeadaux(sp) armageddon.

If directed by a person who believed she dies, if the director had sense, he or she would still make the ending just as ambiguous and pragmatic. The ending of the piece is just that and as opposed to making it seem as if the ending is concrete and clear, you should see that it leaves everything to the imagination of the audience. And we the audience make decisions, but none of them are truly decisive pontificates, and the joy of a piece such as caroline is that while the story has much that is incredibly clear, just as much, if not more, isn't. This isn't going against the intent of the musical as the intent isn't known by any of us, but is up to us to interpret. Funny, but the intent everyone points out would seem to stay if she died or didn't.

What do you think the purpose of "Caroline, Or Change" is?

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/30/04 at 11:54am

There is a very good reason to not stage the show so that she dies in the end. It is not supported by the text. Noah states that she has come back to work. And to point to the fantastical elements of the scene (they talk to each other even though they are not in the same space) doesn't work either, because that convention is set up in the first act. The final scene directly echoes an earlier scene. It's not a stand-alone.

If there is an inherent problem with C,oC, it's that, because of all the symbolism, some of the facts of the piece can be interpreted. Also, strictly from a dramatic choice, having her actually die is not as strong as having her work through Lot's Wife and yet continue to go back to work. She realizes that Emmie is the change, and that the life she thought of for herself has passed her by. But she'll continue to put on her white uniform in order to make sure that Emmie gets the chance she never had.

I think a clue to the intention of the piece is the title: Caroline, or Change. You have a choice. Be able to change, or be like Caroline. But to remain stagnant (a very powerful theme in several Kushner pieces) will mean that you will be consumed by rage and sorrow. And that sorrow will 'make evil of me.'

[misterchoi]

Posted: 11/30/04 at 12:03pm

Of course it isn't a stand alone scene. And both the scenes are the most beautiful segments of the show. (The other being gonna pass me a law).

I love the interpretation Robbiej just stated. Absolutely beautiful!

Actually, i think Caroline was consumed by rage and sorrow, and that is why she chose to leave. She prayed for G-d to kill her.

This can also be seen as she prayed for G-d to turn her into a passive person who is lacking any anger, hence her being the salt pillar, always watching, never moving or reacting.

And I don't think that there is any inherent problem with C,oC. More, I think it is the show's greatest asset. The fact that they speak to eachother just like in the first act doens't negate the death I believe she experienced. It just means she is talking from a different place, though you are right, as it means she doesn't necessarily have to be dead, which is something I have believed since the beginning.

what an expletive brilliant title this show has.

[misterchoi]

Posted: 11/30/04 at 12:03pm

Of course it isn't a stand alone scene. And both the scenes are the most beautiful segments of the show. (The other being gonna pass me a law).

I love the interpretation Robbiej just stated. Absolutely beautiful!

Actually, i think Caroline was consumed by rage and sorrow, and that is why she chose to leave. She prayed for G-d to kill her.

This can also be seen as she prayed for G-d to turn her into a passive person who is lacking any anger, hence her being the salt pillar, always watching, never moving or reacting.

And I don't think that there is any inherent problem with C,oC. More, I think it is the show's greatest asset. The fact that they speak to eachother just like in the first act doens't negate the death I believe she experienced. It just means she is talking from a different place, though you are right, as it means she doesn't necessarily have to be dead, which is something I have believed since the beginning.

what an expletive brilliant title this show has.

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/30/04 at 12:18pm

'And I don't think that there is any inherent problem with C,oC.'

I happen to agree with you. The only reason I can forsee it being a problem is because many audiences these days need to have things spelled out to them. Ambiguity, art's greatest trait, has become a liability in an age of talking heads who must find the black or the white and loathe the gray.

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 11/30/04 at 3:44pm

She prayed for G-d to kill her.

This reminds me of a small problem I have with "Lot's Wife." It's an absolutely stunning, thunderous number, no doubt; but during the denouement, I don't like how Kushner has Caroline ask God to "murder" her:

"Murder me God
down in the basement
murder my dreams so I stop wanting
murder my hope of him returning"

I understand why Kushner would choose a powerful, evocative word like "murder" over something weak like "kill." But I also think it's somewhat inappropriate and out-of-character for Caroline. She's effectively asking God to commit murder, to commit the ultimate sin. There are too strong overtones of wrongdoing and victimhood. Is that really what Caroline would ask from her God, that he be a murderer?

It's not like Kushner to use a word lazily like that, so what do you guys think?

[Plum]

Posted: 11/30/04 at 4:49pm

I think Caroline does a few things that are out of character because of the extreme emotional agitation she's going through- especially slapping Emmie and saying what she said to Noah.